Palestine and israel in HOI 4

[WarPie]

Will these two nations became soverign states at the end of the timeline or two puppet states like in HOI 3?

 

[J_Master]

First of alll: you may have opened a shithole worth of politics.
Second: I hope the middle east becomes independant after the war. It happened historically

 

[tfrules]

It would be an interesting chain of events for Britain, especially if they want to hold on to their empire

 

[Mabs]

First of alll: you may have opened a shithole worth of politics.
Second: I hope the middle east becomes independant after the war. It happened historically

1- yea absolutely
2- historical isnt relevant end-game.. the START should be, but where it goes from there should be entirely open.

that being said, IF the allies win, and control british palestine / mesopotameia , and french syria then they could ? interesting event chain certainly.

This also ties into the US end-of-war scenario. as they emphatically did not want the "Empire" to reestablish itself. we learned this and accepted grudgingly, the french didnt - see French-Indochina war that became Vietnam war... also gives a (somewhat) time compressed option for "things that can be fought over after the Allies take Berlin" and would allow the timeline to extend *cough DLC expansions *cough*

 

[LordOfWar16]

I dont really think so. Egypt, which was technicly on paper independent before 1936 are still under direct controll in HoI IV. The british only really controlled the suez channel directly, while egypt itself, while still under heavy british influence, officially was independent. That could of course be easiely moddeled by Egypt being an puppet of the UK, just as the british Raj. That said i guess it has to do with balancing reasons, since thanks to the british colonies (egypt included) they have roughly the same industry potential as germany when it comes to availabel factory slots in the beginning. That will change of course with the german conquest of european factories.

In theory in an histocial game setup, they could potentially add an event after the war that causes war of independence in the colonies and heavy uprisings that could push the british and french player to release those colonies. Then again the game only really fully spans about 12 years (1936-1948), while you could keep playing after that of course, there wont be any further events and the tech- and national focus trees have an end, of course.

 

[Mabs]

I dont really think so. Egypt, which was technicly on paper independent before 1936 are still under direct controll in HoI IV. The british only really controlled the suez channel directly, while egypt itself, while still under heavy british influence, officially was independent. That could of course be easiely moddeled by Egypt being an puppet of the UK, just as the british Raj. That said i guess it has to do with balancing reasons, since thanks to the british colonies (egypt included) they have roughly the same industry potential as germany when it comes to availabel factory slots in the beginning. That will change of course with the german conquest of european factories.

i think, especially in HoI 3 , having it just "be" british saved on clunky lack of control of vassals etc.. having it work well for a player > it being 100% historical but clunky.. see Egypt, also India etc

 

[LordOfWar16]

i think, especially in HoI 3 , having it just "be" british saved on clunky lack of control of vassals etc.. having it work well for a player > it being 100% historical but clunky.. see Egypt, also India etc

while i totaly agree on that it was better that way in HoI III i dont really think that is nessesary in HoI IV. Overall, with national focuses you can not only help your country, but also your allies. The UK for example can select national focuses that build factories in Canada or Australia. Same could be done with Egypt aswell.

Lend lease works alot better aswell, since you dont just give them "IC" but actuall equipment to work with. So instead of them simply building tons of provincial improvements (aa guns, infrastructure, tons of forts etc) and basicly no troops, which was the case in HoI III most of the time, you can indirectly build them an propper army.

Besides that, it would add some interesting possibilities to the gameplay. Imagine the axis putting alot of focus into influencing the british Raj and Egypt and strenghening facist groups there. If the UK is unable to fight that, it could result in an civil war in which both the allies and axis could have alot interest in their side winning in. If the allies dont manage to contain that, you could end up with an independent axis egypt and India. That would open up an alternate route to cut of the british from the Suez rather than simply overrunning them with ground troops. The british still have direct controll over the Suez of course, but it would be alot harder to defend when the war eventually breaks out with egyptian and probably italina troops right at the border to the suez. Sure, the game is still focused around total warfare, but the new dynamic civil war mechanics opens up alot more alternative ways of gameplay.

 

[Mabs]

while i totaly agree on that it was better that way in HoI III i dont really think that is nessesary in HoI IV. Overall, with national focuses you can not only help your country, but also your allies. The UK for example can select national focuses that build factories in Canada or Australia. Same could be done with Egypt aswell.

Lend lease works alot better aswell, since you dont just give them "IC" but actuall equipment to work with. So instead of them simply building tons of provincial improvements (aa guns, infrastructure, tons of forts etc) and basicly no troops, which was the case in HoI III most of the time, you can indirectly build them an propper army.

Besides that, it would add some interesting possibilities to the gameplay. Imagine the axis putting alot of focus into influencing the british Raj and Egypt and strenghening facist groups there. If the UK is unable to fight that, it could result in an civil war in which both the allies and axis could have alot interest in their side winning. If the allies dont manage to contain that, you could end up with an independent axis egypt and India. That would open up an alternate route to cut of the british from the Suez rather than simply overrunning them with ground troops. Sure, the game is still focused around total warfare, but the new dynamic civil war mechanics opens up alot more alternative ways of gameplay.

yea, will wait and see how it plays first though

*cautious optimism*

 

[safe-keeper]

You could release them in HOI3, although it was kinda weird you had to either release both of them, or release half of Israel, or half of Palestine. Same with North and South Korea, you couldn't release it as a single country, you had to follow historical partitioning.

So I'm hoping you can release them in HOI4, especially if you can go down some ahistorical routes and give all of historical Israel to Israel, for example, release Korea as a single nation, or somehow end up liberating Ukraine or other nations that didn't appear in HOI3 at all.

 

[J_Master]

Or give all of historical palestine to Palestina

 

[safe-keeper]

Or give all of historical palestine to Palestina

...no. Just no. Not starting a 90 pages long discussion which will eventually get locked and get half the participants banned. Just nope .

 

[Mabs]

View attachment 152832
...no. Just no. Not starting a 90 pages long discussion which will eventually get locked and get half the participants banned. Just nope .

 

[GsusNSV]

View attachment 152832
...no. Just no. Not starting a 90 pages long discussion which will eventually get locked and get half the participants banned. Just nope .

You really think it will last 90 pages until @Had a dad then finally close the thread?

 

[Secret Master]

I guess for flavor it might be interesting, but I can't see Paradox releasing a bunch of options in the region. It's really not that important for gameplay, so I'd be surprised if there was anything more than HOI3.

I could be wrong, though.

 

[J_Master]

I didn't mean to fire op the shitstorm machine, sorry.

BUT....

if a could war dlc would come, I'd like to see Some descision for this. Three option:
1. The british tell the Jews to basically fuck off, thus reducing the chance of Arab states to sway to the SU.
2. Historical, pretty obvious.
3. One state, 2 people. Mostely avoiding actual war in favor of some internal struggle for the state(no descisive name) wich resignates there.

Opinions?

 

[Phi]

This thread will get closed, but ust for the sake of argument ...

1. A first event could be in 1938 on the Peel Commission. If with a minor chance the Arabs accept the suggestions, then we have a two-state solution in 1938.
2. A second event should be on the UN partition plan. Again, with a minor chance, the Arabs could accept a two state solution. Modelling the UN decision itself is pointless as it was rejected anyway in history. Not having an UN resolution would not change anything.
3. Then we have Israel vs the Arab league. The fact that the Israeli self-defense forces were better organized will not change in the time-frame of the game. Historically, Czechoslovakia giving weapons to Israel was helpful, but there were selling to all sides of the conflict. Only Israel had the larger need. I guess that Czechoslovakia would be substituted by some other devasted European country, which wants to make a quick buck, in any alternative history.

So besides a war of independence, which Israel will most likely will, I only see the two partition plans as relevant if one wants to consider the option that the Arabs agreed. This is not historically plausible at, but might be nice for game-play. The Arab-Israeli war of 1948 should just play out the same. By training and equipment, there was no chance that the Arabs are much more successful than they are historically. By manpower and other political constraints, Israel was not able to go beyong the historical Green Line.

So considering the fact that the military conflict would have ended that way more or less anyway (unless we have a major Axis victory or some other nonsense) and that all partition plans were rejected by the Arab side anyway without any opposition and that this is only a tiny area of the map, which will not be able to represent the 1948 war in any way, I am very happy with a historical split of Israel/Palestine between Egypt, Jordan and Israel.

 

[doktor_zaius]

Generally speaking, I hope HoI4 doesnt treat the whole of various Empires as sovereign territory. That is, it always bugs me about HoI3 that Egypt was considered the same as England in terms of occupation. Earlier iterations of HoI treated these regions as 'liberatable' by an Empire's enemies. That is, Italy could take over Egypt and give it independence. In order to do that in HoI4 you pretty much have to conquer every corner of the British Empire. And if you do that, you've pretty much won the game. HoI4 should allow for the same lattitude on occupation policies and liberations that HoI2 did. There should be realistic penalties. If Italy takes over the palestinian region and sets up an Israeli state, the arab populations would be more restive. Similarly, Zionist pressure groups abroad could cause trouble for a country that sets up an Arab ruled state in that territory. Notice how I've tried to phrase this to avoid bugging anyone too much.

 

[J_Master]

@doktor_zaius You've done your best to stay as politically neutral as possible. And it is a good idea to have such a event chain for every nation. If italy(most likely) occupies the land in the aftermath of a succesfull egyptian campaign, germany should demand controll of it, for on the forum banned reasons.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

Or give all of historical palestine to Palestina

 

[joe9594]

Wow, its now been like 13 hours since someone said something about the Arab Israeli conflict and no one has called anyone else a fascist yet. Good job internet.