But when we talk about huge mods like Kaiserreich and Lux Invicta which are basically new games on the same engine, sure you see the merit in asking say 2€ for a download of such expansion-size mods.
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Oh, Yes.
To take Kaiserreich for example I would have them leave it as a free mod for HoI2 and rebuild it for HOI IV and then sell that version from the start.
To take Kaiserreich for example I would have them leave it as a free mod for HoI2 and rebuild it for HOI IV and then sell that version from the start.
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And that money goes to...? People who started the mod? People who are working on it now? What about the mods that borrow from them? What about the mods they borrow from? What about sub-mods for them? Should they start being sold to, with 75% of those profits going to whoever made the bigger mods
?What you fail to realize is mods like Kaiserreich and Lux Invicta would never have been made in the first place if you had to pay for them. They required a huge amount of cooperation between many people, and large amounts of sharing expertise and resources, and help between many users to be made. If profit had been in the picture, they wouldn't exist. It'd be hypocritical at best - sometimes downright scammy - to start selling them.
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I understand that there are such issues in mod monetization. These issues have been obvious to everyone ever since this debacle started.And that money goes to...? People who started the mod? People who are working on it now? What about the mods that borrow from them? What about the mods they borrow from? What about sub-mods for them? Should they start being sold to, with 75% of those profits going to whoever made the bigger mods
What you fail to realize is mods like Kaiserreich and Lux Invicta would never have been made in the first place if you had to pay for them. They required a huge amount of cooperation between many people, and large amounts of sharing expertise and resources, and help between many users to be made. If profit had been in the picture, they wouldn't exist. It'd be hypocritical at best - sometimes downright scammy - to start selling them.
I am only speaking if, if we absolutely have to monetize mods then we might as well try to make it as humanely as possible.
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This is why I would start the policy change for up coming games, not those already out there.
The person or team would have a clear understanding is this a free or paid mod, does someone get paid for making graphics ($20 per graphic) or a % of the mod makers % of each one sold. And an understanding if they are just contributing a bit to the mod they will get nothing other than due credit in the credits of the mod. If handled well clear understanding for all.
Okay sinugie this is getting annoying. You haven't made a single post in this thread yet you go around "disagreeing" with every single post of mine without ever stating why. You're adding nothing to the discussion. Your constant clicking of the disagree button is as though you quoted every one of my posts and just said "I don't agree" in reply. I'm sure you'd see why that's spam. And this is not?
And before you do it, yes, I know you're just going to click "disagree" on this one too without explaining why. I'm just saying if you want to be constructive here, you better start actually voicing your opinion rather than merely screaming "I protest!".
And before you do it, yes, I know you're just going to click "disagree" on this one too without explaining why. I'm just saying if you want to be constructive here, you better start actually voicing your opinion rather than merely screaming "I protest!".
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Yes, and that is why if it is implemented we will never have mods as great as Kaiserreich. Just imagine all the people that routinely quit jobs such as TV shows because of disputes over the pay.
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I suggest starting to branch out slowly. Keep hiring the suitable people and subcontract some of the rest to make your DLCs.
That would take care of the curation and quality control woes. Both parties would make money.
To combat the overcrowding of the DLC market they just need to be combined into bigger packs. Or they need to be listed somewhere else than the game's Steam page.
So basically I'm suggesting workshop, but with curation and QA. You'd have to prove yourself with free mods before you can apply to the curated program.
This way Paradox could build a development path from a scrubby script kiddie to a useful contributor, maybe ending up as a potential Paradox employee.
Fully integrated approach, with Paradox keeping the leashes all the way on the most important part of the process, the customer experience. (the free ones should remain "the anarchy" they are)
Start with cosmetics, expand into UI rehauls, events.
Maybe this class needs a new name other than paid mods or DLCs because they are already tainted and have resistance toward long lists of items on sale. CSGO, Dota etc. already sold us on the idea. Maybe it needs to start with similar subtle approach?
Because people respond well to altruism, Paradox should keep doing what they do with the free patches that accompany the paid DLCs. In this class of products, it could mean occasional Paradox-sponsored mods. They would pay a lump sum for some free mods as a surprise reward for reaching market validation. Or enlist them to do a paid mod, but then release it free instead of the usual scheme of curating & doing QA but then listing it for a price.
Donating / leading by example should start from the company itself.
I'd rather start paying for curation/QA than the mods themselves. Because I hate wasting time on useless/broken mods more than I love finding out the useful things from the sea of weed. With this value add, the developer/seller's large share of the proceeds would appear much more reasonable. Instead of profiting from something which has required zero added work on the IP owner's part.
Basically this is the difference between current DLCs and mods. You can get a few better mods for free than any DLCs are, but you have to find them. By suffering through some of the worst first.
Convenience can provide almost as much value as content! This is something where the free mods usually fail the hardest. Improve this and money changing hands is perfectly justified.
TL;DR Don't just sell random mods, sell convenient mod experience
That would take care of the curation and quality control woes. Both parties would make money.
To combat the overcrowding of the DLC market they just need to be combined into bigger packs. Or they need to be listed somewhere else than the game's Steam page.
So basically I'm suggesting workshop, but with curation and QA. You'd have to prove yourself with free mods before you can apply to the curated program.
This way Paradox could build a development path from a scrubby script kiddie to a useful contributor, maybe ending up as a potential Paradox employee.
Fully integrated approach, with Paradox keeping the leashes all the way on the most important part of the process, the customer experience. (the free ones should remain "the anarchy" they are)
Start with cosmetics, expand into UI rehauls, events.
Maybe this class needs a new name other than paid mods or DLCs because they are already tainted and have resistance toward long lists of items on sale. CSGO, Dota etc. already sold us on the idea. Maybe it needs to start with similar subtle approach?
Because people respond well to altruism, Paradox should keep doing what they do with the free patches that accompany the paid DLCs. In this class of products, it could mean occasional Paradox-sponsored mods. They would pay a lump sum for some free mods as a surprise reward for reaching market validation. Or enlist them to do a paid mod, but then release it free instead of the usual scheme of curating & doing QA but then listing it for a price.
Donating / leading by example should start from the company itself.
I'd rather start paying for curation/QA than the mods themselves. Because I hate wasting time on useless/broken mods more than I love finding out the useful things from the sea of weed. With this value add, the developer/seller's large share of the proceeds would appear much more reasonable. Instead of profiting from something which has required zero added work on the IP owner's part.
Basically this is the difference between current DLCs and mods. You can get a few better mods for free than any DLCs are, but you have to find them. By suffering through some of the worst first.
Convenience can provide almost as much value as content! This is something where the free mods usually fail the hardest. Improve this and money changing hands is perfectly justified.
TL;DR Don't just sell random mods, sell convenient mod experience
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I don't see why? Just because some mods may be paid mods in future does not mean all mods need to be. If something like my policy is adopted a mod team at start could clearly state this will be a free mod.
sinugie has been agreeing with me. I don't think what he is doing is wrong, but generally I would prefer people state what & why they disagree and I don't over much use the button.
I don't think that just because a mod started off free that people have a right to having the mod remain free and getting eternal updates.
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Turning a mod into paid mid-cycle is actually a smart practice.
Especially if the game hasn't reached the final version yet, so that your "fans" will be forced to dish out the moneh if they wanna keep playin'.
Also, I think the ftp barebone limited mod with a conveniently paid upgrade will be common too.
Basically if you wanna envision what the mod scene will look like tomorrow, look no further than mobile app stores of today.
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You are correct! I was talking about how I would handle it. A mod maker of a free mod does owe anything to the players. He can & should be able to do what he likes. There are many type of mod for different types of games. I could very well see a mod maker making a mod that part 1 is free & part 2 (more of the quest) is paid.
Mod maker: 'You liked part 1 of the mod, you will love part 2, only $5.00'
Player: 'Not fare, I want to finish it! I have been tricked into playing this!'
Mod Maker: 'If the mod is that good you should be willing to pay for it! And I had to put in more effort to finish it and I was not sure I was going to when I started and didn't want people to pay for an unfinished product.'
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There is a simple solution guys. Patreon, allow modders to open a Patreon account for their modding work on PDS titles. Simple ^^.
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Isn't that a monthly thing? That might make sense for people who make lots of content (and more specifically lots of content one subscribes to), but otherwise ... not so much.
Plus it's perhaps less of a hassle to not have to leave the steam workshop to leave a tip, incentivizing more people to do it (pure speculation on my part).
I know this comment is somewhat old but I need to reply for this.
Actual modern economic research strongly suggest otherwise due several things.
At it is the mod community is a voluntarily, community driven project to enhance the games we love.
Now the system gets turned into a capitalist setting, where everyone is competing against each other instead of working together.
By the pure basics of economic theory, the prisoners dilemma prevents a new Nash-Equilibrium (wich existed in the volutary community by the way)
which is the goal of all economic activity more or less. The best possible outcome for the society. This happens due a lack of trust, as nobody wants to get shafted over and will
always choose an action that surely benefits yourself...resulting in a net loss of productivity.
Also a community driven activity thats free, is driven by intrinsic motivation (means doing things for your own pleasure, self-fullfillment or at least non materialistic gains),
but when modders are getting paid they loose this factor as they will now feel like an employee who "has" to deliver. Intrinsic motivation is traded with extrinsic one, here money.
Research proves that extrinsic motivation is far less effective than intrinsic one and needs huge amounts of it to even reach the level of intrinsic motivation.
This surely goes solely for work that was previously unpaid, as there was a totally different connection to your work. This also goes for the "customers", while a lot of people understood issues with compability or bugs, when they were free mods, they wont be as understanding once they get charged. People will develop the attitude, if they pay, they derserve, something a small modder wont be able to keep up. This is also scientifcly researched.
Here are my sources(among others) so you can see i don´t lie:
Successful Management by Motivation: Balancing Intrinsic and Extrinsic Incentives
by Frey and Osterloh
http://www.openlogic.com/resources/...o-external-rewards-kill-intrinsic-motivations
https://rkportfolio.wikispaces.com/file/view/Butler 1988.pdf
http://pages.uoregon.edu/harbaugh/Readings/Misc experimental/gneezy 2000 QJE pay enough.pdf
So the general assumption that by start to pay modder their work will increase is wrong. I might add that this assumption is actually so entrenched into Neoliberal minds, that they cant get away from it. This especially true in US/UK Universities and teachings since von Hayek´s rampage under Reagan/Thatcherism.
Sorry if I made mistakes in my spelling, im no native and my keyboard is not my friend, even in my mother language.
Edit: For the main topic: the only way I can see this happen if Paradox will curate the mods (only let big, non-copyright violating total overhaul mods being monetized with proven support) and sets up a set of rules regarding usage of assets like a fair use clause for free mods. Also Paradox would have to create a rule set for the split of royalties. THEN I could see it someway working....the wild west approach of steam will hurt modding more than they think....regardless what free market radicals say...markets do need juristical security! And even then mods like AGOT are at risk of being shot down!
Edit2: Ok just saw i misread the post i was quoting, he was actually speaking about paradox himself...so just see my answer as an argument aginst the common argument that"paid mods will increase quality"
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I'm personally for rewarding the modding community financially, though I wouldn't let it be 'pay all, end all'. I'd offer the mod for free AND paid. Paid customers get credit, and maybe if you wanted, early access to the next update before it goes live for all for free.
I suppose one way modders got rewarded by Paradox was with Hearts of Iron and Darkest Hour, if memory serves me some of the biggest modders got hired or at least rewarded with some responsibility of the game of Darkest Hour. I've done some modding for Kaisereich and made some cheats though I do not see my work worth any kind of financial reward compared to the others.
I suppose one way modders got rewarded by Paradox was with Hearts of Iron and Darkest Hour, if memory serves me some of the biggest modders got hired or at least rewarded with some responsibility of the game of Darkest Hour. I've done some modding for Kaisereich and made some cheats though I do not see my work worth any kind of financial reward compared to the others.
Well thats suprising...thought if they would try to implement something like this, they would at least
have the balls to weather the shit storm that would have happened regardless.
Edit: Funny how you get downvoted here because of ideology when you still deliver actual scientific backup....
have the balls to weather the shit storm that would have happened regardless.
Edit: Funny how you get downvoted here because of ideology when you still deliver actual scientific backup....
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If someone wants to waste their time downvoting half the posts in the thread, that's their business. I presume that it will only hasten Paradox removing the disagree function from the board.
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