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Wagonlitz

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This tiny pieace of EU legislation, among the few nice things which came out of the whole thing, is almost surely going away with the TTP.
Yeah I fear that too. TTIP at least needs to pass the EU parliament and might even need to be ratified in the individual countries. I hope for the latter since then there is a good chance of it falling. For instance here in Denmark it would have to be made into a plebiscite since to avoid that an enormous majority in the Danish parliament would have to pass it (5/6 of the total amount of MPs) and that isn't happening.
 
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Yeah I fear that too. TTIP at least needs to pass the EU parliament and might even need to be ratified in the individual countries. I hope for the latter since then there is a good chance of it falling. For instance here in Denmark it would have to be made into a plebiscite since to avoid that an enormous majority in the Danish parliament would have to pass it (5/6 of the total amount of MPs) and that isn't happening.

Knowing the EU, this would just mean that there would be referendums on the issue again and again, until the "right" answer is gotten.
 
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This tiny pieace of EU legislation, among the few nice things which came out of the whole thing, is almost surely going away with the TTP.

How does that work? The EU would suddenly exempt the US from EU consumer legislation or (for some reason) revoke such legislation across the EU? For what reason?
 
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How does that work? The EU would suddenly exempt the US from EU consumer legislation or (for some reason) revoke such legislation across the EU? For what reason?
Copyright and trading/consumer standards homogeneisation.
From the looks of it, all towards the US side where Corps have much fewer legal bounds.

In practice, I was thinking the directive (or is it a regulation?) will simply be changed to conform to US standards.
 
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How does that work? The EU would suddenly exempt the US from EU consumer legislation or (for some reason) revoke such legislation across the EU? For what reason?

That's essentially what the TTIP is - reducing European regulatory standards so that American companies can better compete in EU markets. Tariffs are already rather negligible between the two countries, so the "free trade" promotion that the treaty will do with come mostly from "harmonizing" standards (i.e. setting them on the same level) and such things.
 

Arakhor

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Referenda (fairly-run ones, at least) can't be held without endless debate of both sides of the given issues, but I suppose that corporate scumbags can usually rely on voter apathy to get away with most things.
 

Andrelvis

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Referenda (fairly-run ones, at least) can't be held without endless debate of both sides of the issue, but I suppose that corporate scumbags can usually rely on voter apathy to get away with most things.

If the political class is nearly entirely aligned with one side of the issue, it basically means that you get referendums until the "right" answer is chosen by the population, or they put it in through some measure that doesn't require referendums. I'm not sure if any provision of TTIP would affect game resale, though.
 

Wagonlitz

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Referenda (fairly-run ones, at least) can't be held without endless debate of both sides of the given issues, but I suppose that corporate scumbags can usually rely on voter apathy to get away with most things.
Yeah voter apathy could be a problem. Though as was seen in Denmark with the referendum on the new EU patent court many people actually voted blank due to not thinking they knew enough on the subject. And too many people not showing up or voting blank and even if it is a yes majority it won't get past the threshold.
 

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Hi Guys,

Please keep this on topic if you wish to discuss TTIP start a thread in the OT forum.
As for any announcements, please consider that Steam announced this policy shift on a Friday while offices in Europe were winding down for the weekend.
Please allow Management the time to consider the issues involved and how they impact us, our modders and our members.
Do not expect any announcements or positions until Management has had time to reconvene on Monday or early next week, and had the opportunity to discuss the issues involved.
We understand this is an important issue for many of you and ask for your patience while it is being looked into.
 
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ZombieShuffler

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I don't have a problem with mods that aren't free, but I think the modders are getting too little for their creation. 25% only? Would Valve ever do that do a development corporation?

How would PDX feel if steam said: "Okay now we get 75% of the sales from your games."

It seems like Valve is stiffing the modders because unlike a corporation, modders don't have resources to fight back or the business acumen to know how to fight back.

O4Ue5hs.jpg
 
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What's Bethesda's fair share? Bethesda is already compensated by the sale of n+1(mod owners + the mod dev) copies of the game to run a mod. Paid Modding development should be viewed as using the game and tools as a commercial engine. Paid Modding development should really not be viewed as "modding" anymore. They making a commercial product now, with the expectations that apply to a commercial product. This should go both ways though, modern commercial engines have extremely generous terms for their use, almost all of them being free to use with major support and documentation given, with a small charge like Unreal 4's 5% royalty fee.

I would argue that modders are much closer to App store devs then a developer working with a publisher. Bethesda doesn't help the modder in any way, engine aside. Modders are their own publishers in effect. That has the 70(Dev: Modder)/30(Host: Steam) split and the modder pays a fee to the engine provider as above. In this case Bethesda.

This is not reflected in the current setup. Bethesda taking the lion's share is a blatant attempt to monetize a community that has helped make its games some of the most popular ones on PC with sales beyond what they expected. Todd Howard even acknowledged this: “Skyrim did better than we’ve ever done on PC by a large, large number. And that’s where the mods are. That feeds the game for a long time."[1]

So, does this sound like Bethesda deserves 45% of the price of the mod? Let's not even talk about that right before this, Bethesda was fine with Modders getting 100% of their donations. What does Bethesda bring to the workshop, aside from their permission for it, that changes the previous relationship between Modder, their donation compensation, and Bethesda?
 
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"Paid mods"
Stopped reading there. I'm not paying a cent for any mods.

There are three fields of argument in favour of paid mods. They are all wrong.

1. Modders deserve money for their work
Some modders may believe they deserve money for their work, and some consumers also, but these are inherently subjective judgments. The market will determine who is right. Currently, the state of the market does not support that assertion. There is no normative consensus that modders deserve money for their work, which necessarily means that there is normative consensus that they do not.

2. It will lead to better-quality mods
How? Almost every good major mod is a collaboration effort. How will the revenue be split among the modding team? Let me guess: everyone will magically just get along and share the money and there will literally never ever be a case of a mod team dissolving over sharing out the piddly little 25% left to them? That's crap. Modders will only have to get burned once by collaborative modding to swear off it, and then we'll lose all our great modding teams. And why invest the time, anyway? In Skyrim terms, a small mod (like a new set of armour) might sell for $1, but I don't think you'll see people paying much more than $15 - $20 for even the biggest mod. The biggest mods take a lot longer to make than 15-20 sets of armour I tell you hwat. But what about good minor mods? Well, what about them? They're minor. Tiny little things. Sure, the bigger resolution menu mods for EUIV are useful but I sure as hell wouldn't call them worth my money. In fact, if I couldn't just use that mod I wouldn't be paying someone for it, I'd be yelling and swearing at Paradox for releasing a broken, unusable interface that was too small to read, let alone play on. Good minor mods are mostly things that ought to have been in the game anyway. Those that aren't - well, I certainly don't think they're worth paying for.

3. "I am opposed to paid mods, but what about a donation button?"
Already exists - the "pay what you want" scheme. Unless Valve forces all modders to use it and forces it to be set to zero dollars as the minimum then it's literally pointless. Plus, who the hell donates to modders anyway?

The fact is that modders don't mod for money. How can we tell? Because they don't get paid currently - those that do, don't get paid very much - and yet we still have mods. Tons of mods. Scads of mods. I am modding right now, for free. Modding will literally never be a viable career.

This is the point where I get pointed to the most subscribed mod on the Steam Workshop (Pure Waters) with it's 820,000 subscribers and told "if every one of those subscribers paid a dollar that mod author would be making over $250k a year." This is true, but not every one of those subscribers will pay a dollar. Why? Because if Mr Pure Waters charges a dollar then I replicate his simple work and charge 75c in my own mod. Maybe I even literally just steal his mod and tweak it a bit. Then someone comes along and undercuts me. It's a race to the absolute bottom of what people consider their time worth, and evidently there are enough people who consider their time worth nothing at all to drive prices down to zip. It's not like video games, which require a vastly more massive investment of time and capital - literally anyone who doesn't have Down's can churn out a mod, and the people with Down's can just copy-paste. Sure, the price might stabilize at, like, 10c or 15c, and Mr Pure Waters would still be making $27,000 a year, but the next most subscribed mod has 300,000 less subscribers. And this doesn't even address the fact that people have a maximum limit of money they will spend cumulatively on the Workshop, driving subscription down across all paid mods. The numbers drop off immediately and massively. There will be like 5 or 6 people at the very very top of the modding lottery who make some money, but everyone else gets effectively nothing. Chump change. If you have the time and resources to dick around in front of a computer for a few hours you do not need the $15 you may or may not make in sales.

Which leads me to my final point:
Anyone who thinks modders are going to make anything more than pocket change even if they kept 100% of the revenue is probably not a modder, because modding requires some semblance of intelligence. There is absolutely zero point bringing money into modding at all, other than to let Valve play happy merchant like the greedy, fat, rootless cosmopolitans that they are and make a tidy packet skimming off the top of every 25c sale. It will not help modders. It will not lead to better mods. Anyone who is in support of this is literally worse than Hitler, and that goes for you too Paradox.
 
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Except in the real world even proper games are left broken, mangled messes for months at the time or even forever on Steam and nobody cares.
What EU law btw? You'd have a heck of a time demonstrating that the mod is even causing problems. It's impossible for real games, let alone a mod depending on a particular version of a game (and maybe other mods) versus hardware/settings/GPU drivers etc.

"Yes your honor, you see, the game CTDs when I enter in Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath and talk to this NPC right there after 6 pm! "

That would work. It's not difficult to show a judge that a game crashes. Usually it doesn't even need to go to a judge it goes an agency that oversees these anti consumer practices.
 

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Anyone who thinks modders are going to make anything more than pocket change even if they kept 100% of the revenue is probably not a modder, because modding requires some semblance of intelligence. There is absolutely zero point bringing money into modding at all, other than to let Valve play happy merchant like the greedy, fat, rootless cosmopolitans that they are and make a tidy packet skimming off the top of every 25c sale. It will not help modders. It will not lead to better mods. Anyone who is in support of this is literally worse than Hitler, and that goes for you too Paradox.

One particular modder has already made €299 out of their Skyrim mod, in just a few days. That isn't "pocket change".
 
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ZombieShuffler

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Leaving aside the part where people don't want to pay for things, which I understand, I neither support nor oppose paid mods. But I think we all realize that if Content A is being sold, the creator of Content A should get most of the money. Valve stiffing the creator by giving them only 25% is outrageous.

What would PDX do if steam came along and said that they could only get 25% of the sales of their game? They would punish Valve mercilessly!
 
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madcat911

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One particular modder has already made €299 out of their Skyrim mod, in just a few days. That isn't "pocket change".
In a closed market with no other competitors, on the second day of this initiative. That's what we in the econ business call "not a perfectly competitive market". Granted, the market won't be perfectly competitive at any point in the future either but there sure as hell will be more than 17 mods on offer, which I'm sure even a layman can see is going to drive prices into the absolute ground. Especially considering the barrier for entry is "has computer; has brain".

Plus, it's a pay what you want mod. I can't see what the minimum price is set at because Steam won't let me check unless I have the DLCs, but I assume it's nowhere near the $3? I could be wrong. If I am right, though, it's disingenuous to base your estimate off the recommended price when we have no actual sales data to show how many people bought at that price, which I am assuming you are doing considering that 3*431*0.25=323=€297. Again: unless you have some other source, or the minimum purchase price is actually $3 (I can't see it) then I do not believe that number. Even if that number is correct, the market is nowhere near settled.

Bleakden would not be a hard mod to make. If Shezrie really did make $323 then I expect we'll be seeing Bleakburrow and Bleakcave knockoffs for $2.50 and $2 and etc. etc. as soon as people can ram them through Steam's approval process, all made by people looking at the most profitable mods and then reproducing them to sell at just slightly under. It's called competition.
 
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Laureolus

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I don't know why people are disagreeing with @madcat911 in the post above mine. He is being realistic and not unconstructive at all.

Look at Bleakden review here http://imgur.com/a/bqcla?gallery . The quality is very subpar. I feel this isn't a failing of the modder per say, but that Valve wished for him to quickly make a showcase debut quest mod. He didn't have time to make his own assets, and was unable to ask to use any because of the NDA while not being sucmy asshole and just snatching them, all while learning the franky poor documentation to do this Quest work. Straight hallways with dirt textures, zero custom work on the NPCs, poor interactions with NPCs. It is quite clearly their first larger mod and is hugely rushed.

The overall review is a bit harsh, but isn't dishonest. The quality of the debut weapons/armor is quite telling, you can see that most of them were made by DOTA 2 people whom Valve asked to quickly make a mod for this program. Their unfamiliarity with Skyrim's graphical needs shows quite harshly save for one set.
 
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