Paid mods on Steam

[Chancellor Ocato]

I could see this coming 4 years ago.

Personally, I've given up on modding for Skyrim when I was banned from the Nexus and ALL my mods weren't taken down as requested because they were by EULA property of Nexus.

I understand it is the same deal with Steam and even more so as documented by Chesko, with the added crux that they get 75% of the paid mod income even if things go smoothly.

I miss the old days of indipendent mods hosted on proprietary sites, in the days of Morrowind and Oblivion.

Never again.

 

[Chancellor Ocato]

I personally dont see how paid mods could work for our PDS games that are constantly updated.

Keeping large mods up to date after a major patch is ALOT of work, and if people have paid for them, they have much higher demands.

Well isn't this valid for Bethesda and Skyrim and the upcoming FO4?

 

[magitsu]

Well isn't this valid for Bethesda and Skyrim and the upcoming FO4?

Indeed it is, not for patches in Skyrim though but the dependency of mods and their versioning. That's why I'm inclined to believe that it would be far better to set up a way to support continual development a la Patreon instead of single purchases from Workshop.
That way you'd operate on the shared understanding that it's meant to work for both parties in the long term.
Support is useless until you need it. When it's needed it's one of the few things that provide companies real competitive advantage. Modder has zero obligation to do it.
Single purchase from a hobbyist is a potential way of ending up with a customer experience nightmare. I wouldn't willingly associate that kind of things with my portfolio. Because when money enters into the picture, expectations change.
If the buyers would understand that they wouldn't be buying a product similar to what their understanding of the game itself is then it wouldn't be a problem. Personally as things are funding someone's explorations into modding via patronship/kickstarter-style seems to include more reasonable expectations, less potential conflicts.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Support is useless until you need it. When it's needed it's one of the few things that provide companies real competitive advantage. Modder has zero obligation to do it.

Actually depending on how support is needed the modder might have an obligation to provide it under EU law. And since he does business in the EU---he sells it in the EU when it is bought by EU citizens---he has to follow EU law.

 

[Chancellor Ocato]

Actually depending on how support is needed the modder might have an obligation to provide it under EU law. And since he does business in the EU---he sells it in the EU when it is bought by EU citizens---he has to follow EU law.

Except in the real world even proper games are left broken, mangled messes for months at the time or even forever on Steam and nobody cares.
What EU law btw? You'd have a heck of a time demonstrating that the mod is even causing problems. It's impossible for real games, let alone a mod depending on a particular version of a game (and maybe other mods) versus hardware/settings/GPU drivers etc.

"Yes your honor, you see, the game CTDs when I enter in Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath and talk to this NPC right there after 6 pm! "

 

[magitsu]

Actually EU law.

In practise when 24hr Steam refund cooldown is over that's final.
If someone actually went through the legal steps you are suggesting that would scare most modders away. It's really hard to even imagine how it would unfold, since more than likely the seller would be an individual instead of a corporation. Liabilities are quite different. For example enforced return policies probably only apply to companies. Or would Valve be on the hook since it's their platform? Best not to continue this thought or it will end up in a headache.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Actually depending on how support is needed the modder might have an obligation to provide it under EU law. And since he does business in the EU---he sells it in the EU when it is bought by EU citizens---he has to follow EU law.

Were does a transaction take place in cyberspace? If the company is a U.S. company and the servers are located in the U.S. is a EU costumer traveling by cyberspace to the U.S. to make the purchase?

 

[Graphic]

The idea that EU trade laws are going to keep paid mods honest is incredibly naive. Since it doesn't work with actual commercial games released by professional developers, what chance does it have to regulate mods?

Stronghold 3 was one of the most broken games I've ever had the displeasure of playing, and that was made within EU borders. Where was the massive lawsuit to make Firefly pay for that broken product and issue everyone refunds? That's right, it never happened. Get a grip on reality, please.

 

[Graphic]

I personally dont see how paid mods could work for our PDS games that are constantly updated.

Keeping large mods up to date after a major patch is ALOT of work, and if people have paid for them, they have much higher demands.

It would also force us to take modsupport into far bigger account, potentially making worse experiences for the users, as we may be forced to not do what we feel is the best design because it breaks some mod.

I mean, I've met @gigau and @myzael they are great people and their mod is really good. However, I don't even consider the impact for them to update M&T when we change or add features in EU4, because my job is to make the best game possible, not a technology-platform.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease.

 

[Andrelvis]

I understand it is the same deal with Steam and even more so as documented by Chesko, with the added crux that they get 75% of the paid mod income even if things go smoothly.

They aren't "owned" by Steam, Steam "only" has a license to keep redistributing them to people who paid for the mods. Which is rather fair, really, so that modders can't remove items, screwing over the people who already bought them.

 

[Arakhor]

Were does a transaction take place in cyberspace? If the company is a U.S. company and the servers are located in the U.S. is a EU costumer traveling by cyberspace to the U.S. to make the purchase?

It probably won't mean a lot in the end, but Valve's EULA was adjusted to specifically require EU shoppers to waive their consumer rights when downloading games on Steam. Their refund policy is probably still illegal, but at least they want to claim that they have the right to screw you over first.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Except in the real world even proper games are left broken, mangled messes for months at the time or even forever on Steam and nobody cares.
What EU law btw? You'd have a heck of a time demonstrating that the mod is even causing problems. It's impossible for real games, let alone a mod depending on a particular version of a game (and maybe other mods) versus hardware/settings/GPU drivers etc.

"Yes your honor, you see, the game CTDs when I enter in Dead Man's Drink in Falkreath and talk to this NPC right there after 6 pm! "

I agree that it is really unlikely that somebody would go to court, but exentric rich people are known to do strange things and who knows, perhaps somebody wants to make a point. But it is pretty certain they would lose money doing it.

With regard to EU laws there may be more, but the right to seek redress for defective/faulty product ought to cover it. That lasts 2 years and cannot be waived. Though you have to prove that it is a defect/fault which comes from the manufacturer and isn't something you did. And how it would work with software I have no idea.

Though I know that some guy used that law to have his camera refunded (at the price he originally paid; not its current value) because it later turned out to have a defect in some functions which were the reason he bought that camera. So if a feature which was the reason you bought the mod later turns out to be defective/faulty due to something the modder did I don't see why the law wouldn't apply. But again it would cost you money, so nobody except crazy rich guys would do it. The manufacturer then gets three attempts to fix the problem and if unable he has to refund the original price not what the product is worth now. It would be a tough case sure, but even if the modder wins he might lose money since the reimbursement for lawyer fees doesn't cover what you actually use on lawyers (as far as I know); plus he would need to use extensive time on it no matter what.

In practise when 24hr Steam refund cooldown is over that's final.
If someone actually went through the legal steps you are suggesting that would scare most modders away. It's really hard to even imagine how it would unfold, since more than likely the seller would be an individual instead of a corporation. Liabilities are quite different. For example enforced return policies probably only apply to companies. Or would Valve be on the hook since it's their platform? Best not to continue this thought or it will end up in a headache.

It would indeed scare modders. Also Valve might very well be responsible for a part of the claim if not the whole thing due to you buying it in their store. Just like if your PC malfunctions it is the problem of the store where you bought it; not the manufacturer. And I don't see why that would be different here. Steam buys some copies of the mod and resells them to you at a profit. (That they don't buy the copy until just before the resale might matter; doubt it, but don't know.)

Were does a transaction take place in cyberspace? If the company is a U.S. company and the servers are located in the U.S. is a EU costumer traveling by cyberspace to the U.S. to make the purchase?

FIrstly European steam is located in Luxembourg, so there is no doubt whether or not it is under EU law when you make a purchase on steam. Secondly I believe that EU law states that the place of purchase is where the buyer is located, but I am not sure. If I am right on the place of purchase that means that if somebody sells to a European then he can say hello to strict regulation and customer protection. (Though really hard to enforce.)

 

[Wagonlitz]

It probably won't mean a lot in the end, but Valve's EULA was adjusted to specifically require EU shoppers to waive their consumer rights when downloading games on Steam. Their refund policy is probably still illegal, but at least they want to claim that they have the right to screw you over first.

The point is that you cannot waive your consumer rights though. All such agreements are null and void. (Large sections in the steam terms and agreement starts with: 'This doesn't apply in the EU.' And yes Valve might very well do illegal things; for instance a German consumer group is sueing Valve due to Valve not letting people resell their games; since EU law allows for that. The Germans won the first trial, but Valve appealed; don't know if the case is through all appeals yet.

 

[PanzerCorps]

 

[Arakhor]

Whole chunks of EULAs are legally unenforceable, but as with so many things, big corporations rely on not being challenged in the first place.

 

[Andrelvis]

Whole chunks of EULAs are legally unenforceable, but as with so many things, big corporations rely on not being challenged in the first place.

Yeah, that's the sad truth. The common person most often can't afford a lawyer.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Whole chunks of EULAs are legally unenforceable, but as with so many things, big corporations rely on not being challenged in the first place.

As I stated it is unlikely to go to court unless some excentric rich guy either wants to make a statement or just is pissed over his bought mod doesn't work and don't care about losing money on the case.

 

[Chancellor Ocato]

This tiny pieace of EU legislation, among the few nice things which came out of the whole thing, is almost surely going away with the TTP.

 

[Chancellor Ocato]

They aren't "owned" by Steam, Steam "only" has a license to keep redistributing them to people who paid for the mods. Which is rather fair, really, so that modders can't remove items, screwing over the people who already bought them.

Maybe I read the reddit thread incorrectly (what a messy place) but didn't he say he refunded the customers yet they will not remove his mods unless he presses legal action, or something to that effect? Meaning they recognise they are violating his rights yet do not care?

 

[Andrelvis]

Maybe I read the reddit thread incorrectly (what a messy place) but didn't he say he refunded the customers yet they will not remove his mods unless he presses legal action, or something to that effect? Meaning they recognise they are violating his rights yet do not care?

The mod is no longer available for purchase, nor does it show up on the paid mod section any longer. What happens is that it remains stored in Steam's database - probably because they have a policy in place that creators of paid mods can't just delete them, leaving customers without access. Yes, apparently he has refunded all his customers, and it would be nice if Steam allowed a paid mod creator to delete his mod if no one has paid for it, but the system is simply probably not flexible enough to have this yet. Either way, since the mod no longer shows up, it doesn't really make much difference. Very probably they are not violating his rights and he agreed to grant them the right to distribute his mod when he submitted it as a paid mod.