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unmerged(47028)

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Graphical representation of Pagan non-lameness. I caused basically no interference other than occasionally defending another Pagan realm against Christian incursions so I could eat them later. Of course, the usual small independent realm problems are here - almost all the independent small realms, pagan or not, get snapped up the second their behemoth neighbors have a valid CB to do so. In other news, LOL Cumania.

Also, I loaded up my various Scandineighbors (booooo) and took snapshots of their military sizes compared to mine. This comparison is taken when 1 of my demesne and 3 of my total realm are under Recently Conquered. By comparison, Sweden and Denmark have 0 demesne/2 realm and 0 demesne/3 realm Recently Conquered.

It is interesting to see military comparison. Pagan realm size 20 probably eaquals to 7-8 provinces so almost a half of slots are baronies which in addition have "warior cult" of LI 140, HI 40 and A 50. However, Norway and Sweden should have much more income and they have 3 times more available mercenaries. In addition any single country will be able soon to hire holly orders which could obliterate a whole Norrland's realm in 1 go.
 

sergeant113

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A picture's worth a thousand words, so here's another two thousand words on the issue. As I said on page four, I've run two hands-off games for exactly fifty years (ending on September 15, 1166 1116) with the following changes to vanilla:

1) The Holy War CB was completely scrapped.
2) The county-conquest CB was extended to be freely available to Christian (Catholic, Orthodox and Heretic) dukes and counts, but not kings or emperors, as long as the CB target was not Christian and the character has at least 50 piety.

The results were as follows:

4vpp6.png

ws4uR.png


Yeah. This speaks for itself, really.

(Note that the Lithuania in the first image was a revived Russian duchy. The original Lithuanians really get the kick almost as quickly as Nubia under this setup, or Lübeck for that matter.)

My conclusion is that Holy War either needs to go, or it shouldn't be as easy to invoke for such a huge profit. What's more, there should be war outcomes other than "harharhar I'm stealing all your land" - such as imposing tribute, or maybe forcing someone who isn't your liege to decrease crown authority, or adopt a certain succession law.



I've made my stance pretty clear, but I haven't claimed to be objective. Those are my opinions about a friggin' video game, for ChuChu's sake; of course they aren't going to be objective. I think that playing Pagans at the moment is pretty unfun because it's EXPAND OR DIE at the lowest possible level: total success or total failure. There's no room for diplomacy, no room for flavour, no room for subtlety, no room for shenanigans. You expand or you die - usually the latter. And all the while, it doesn't feel too different from playing Catholics, trading in some pretty strong CBs for considerably more levies. Except that said levies stink out loud when pitched against retinues, holy orders, and all non-Pagan levies because they're at tech level zero. Hell, you look up the Nakonids on Wikipedia, you'll see that some of them had a pretty turbulent life. In CK2, they are instantly eaten by Denmark and no-one bats an eyelash, not even the Emperor. This is another problem: there are no spheres of influence in CK2. You get the joint defenses in religious wars, and of course the de-jure mechanic, but that's it, and they aren't sufficient. If, say, Byzantium bites off a huge chunk of Croatia, Hungary is usually just fresh out of luck to do anything about that. This lack of repercussions, or any containment measures from outside, pretty much invites blobbing all over the place and hampers the element of diplomacy, which should be crucial to a character-driven game. That's it, that's my standpoint.


Now, my opinion is indeed subjective, but I think my reasoning is pretty much understandable. Yours, however, is not. You claimed that Pagans were silly powerful to the point of imbalance, that you can conquer Sweden with Lappland by only pressing fabricated claims, and that Scandinavia is easy pickings; then you suddenly changed your mind and suddenly Lappland is HARD and you prefer the challenge; you expressly said that CK2 is a game where you should be able to pick any ruler and do what you want, and not be confined to "historical accuracy" and then when I criticize that you cannot do anything as the Count of Lübeck, or many of the Northern Pagans, I'm suddenly wrong about enjoyment or something, even though we share the same opinion.

I don't follow. I also didn't get your pun.

Great post. I very much agree with you on all points. Mods are great at improving minor gameplays and balancing, but drastic shortcomings such as the lack of sphere of influence and proper diplomacy really decrease the enjoyment of this game.
 

Fishy101

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I do not see how pagans can win against catolicism.

Look, catolic church survived the destruction of Rome, and managad to convert the invaders for more than 600years by the time the game starts.

One has to say, Chistianity was just a better religion, since the pagans eventually converted to it in Rome, and then, on the outside of it.

I don't know about one religion winning against another. But the argument that Christianity is a better religion is debatable. It really comes down to what your criteria for "better" is. Both Christianity and the Islamic faith are offshoots of Judaism. These religions have built in mechanisms to spread itself. All 3 are aggressive religions in that they hold a negative view of non-believers and act accordingly. According to these religions, if you don't believe in their god then you are going to hell. Christians actively send out missionaries to convert others to their religion. It is part of the religion to spread the word of god. Pagans don't generally go out of their way to spread their religion. Christians will also use physical force to spread their religion. Between the fear of hell and fear of actual physical harm, Christianity became the biggest religion in Europe. Would a pagan Europe have turned out better? Who knows?
 

Kimberly

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Both Christianity and the Islamic faith are offshoots of Judaism. These religions have built in mechanisms to spread itself.

Judaism has mechanisms that prevent spreading. :p It is possible to convert to Judaism, but it requires a lot of learning. And before you officially join the Chosen People, the rabbi is required to try and dissuade you from converting three times. You also have to get circumcised--as far as sins go, not getting circumcised is right up there with drinking blood, cursing the Lord and sacrificing your children to Moloch. (No, really; you incur the same punishment.)
 

Fishy101

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Judaism has mechanisms that prevent spreading. :p It is possible to convert to Judaism, but it requires a lot of learning. And before you officially join the Chosen People, the rabbi is required to try and dissuade you from converting three times. You also have to get circumcised--as far as sins go, not getting circumcised is right up there with drinking blood, cursing the Lord and sacrificing your children to Moloch. (No, really; you incur the same punishment.)

Wow, good to know.

What I wanted to say is; Christianity is like that power gamer who blobs hard and wants to blob harder. I play CK2 like that. But that doesn't necessarily mean its better.
 

Dekent

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I have to say after making a simple change to make holy wars require zealous they work alot more like what I think paradox wants them too. Since they aren't being spammed all over, when one does get declared all the neighbors of the same faith jump in defence and are at full strength due to not having to defend their own holy wars.
 

Mattobro

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Here's another representation of pagans not being lame, albeit with a 1000 start instead of 1066 and holy war tweaks

i1ffbt.jpg


As you can see Sweden has been overrun by suomonesko pagans and usurped by a pagan, the baltic slavs have been taking chunks out of the HRE and (not pictured) Hungary went pagan again and took out a chunk of Poland and the Russian duchies.

2h84lf8.jpg


Look at the AI formed pagan kingdoms of Wendland and Lithuania going strong with these small tweaks. This is approaching the 1300's mind you. Poland was eaten by Wendland and the now pagan Silesia is locked in an usurper war against Wendland.

I think this proves for a future pagan dlc they really need to extend the timeline back to At the least, 1000. The only other tweaks were the Slav religion added, Hungarian pagan religion added, and heads of religion for the Slavs and Norse gods.
Of course Paradox will need to add lots of flavor events to make them interesting, and new mechanics so they're more diverse, but this just goes to show they can kick some ass.
 

Daelix

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It is interesting to see military comparison. Pagan realm size 20 probably eaquals to 7-8 provinces so almost a half of slots are baronies which in addition have "warior cult" of LI 140, HI 40 and A 50. However, Norway and Sweden should have much more income and they have 3 times more available mercenaries. In addition any single country will be able soon to hire holly orders which could obliterate a whole Norrland's realm in 1 go.

Since the Warrior Cult is obviously the Pagan shtick, the interesting upside is that it is very cheap and easy to field very large levies in the early game. What this means is that a Pagan leader can generate more troops from his personal -demesne-. Those pictures are a bit misleading - Sweden, Norway, and Denmark probably all have more troops in realm than I do, in addition to more money, etc. But the flip side is that with my tiny realm and mediocre demesne, I can pop out almost 6K troops from my personal demesne, and keep them raised as long as I need without incurring opinion penalties. The only downside, of course, is that they cost gold to keep raised unlike vassal levies, but ticking off your vassals can cost you a lot more gold if they lose their temper.

And most of the troops in the realms of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark will be controlled by vassals who often don't like their liege, and are unwilling to share any more than they have to, much less raise their own levies to achieve their liege's goals. Got sidetracked from my pagan game for a few days, but overall loving it.

Edit: I checked, and I have more Troops in Realm than Norway, Sweden, or Denmark, despite my levies being half depleted at my current save. And although their realms most assuredly are generating more gold than mine, my personal monthly income is slightly higher than all three of their kings' incomes put together.
 

Myrkull

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Warrior Cult bonus gives almost nothing for Romuva Pagans, from the beginning they must fight against HRE, Denmark and/or Sweden, Russian countries and sometimes Poland. Norse Pagans are in even worse situation - there is only one independent Chief with Warrior Cult building.

Is there any option to mod restriction dates on holy wars against pagans? Maybe this will help a bit.
 

Carmichael

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Concerning the Romuva it all comes down to the overstability of the HRE, it is it that must be tweaked, otherwise the Romuva generally succeed to hold their ground, and even expand in some games I made with a fragmented HRE.
Concerning the Norse, the problem comes from the codage of the pagan building: If the top liege is not pagan the building cannot be constructed, personnally I removed this bit and Erik now have a good chance to retake Sweden.
 

Daelix

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Concerning the Romuva it all comes down to the overstability of the HRE, it is it that must be tweaked, otherwise the Romuva generally succeed to hold their ground, and even expand in some games I made with a fragmented HRE.
Concerning the Norse, the problem comes from the codage of the pagan building: If the top liege is not pagan the building cannot be constructed, personnally I removed this bit and Erik now have a good chance to retake Sweden.

Yeah small realms in general need a buff for this time period, either by destabilizing the big realms or by improving diplomacy by adding more options and making the AI better at it. Pretty much every little guy just gets swallowed up by the larger neighbors when they have a casus belli, which is both boring AND historically inaccurate.