Actually yes. Say treaty is reviewed every 5-10 years. Tribute could depend on the size or income of the country. Could be similar amounts as with lost wars.
Pagans are lame
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Actually yes. Say treaty is reviewed every 5-10 years. Tribute could depend on the size or income of the country. Could be similar amounts as with lost wars.
Yes, sir/ma'am, I know that fun is subjective.
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going to go conquer Scandinavia as Lappland now. H/F!
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going to go conquer Scandinavia as Lappland now. H/F!
A picture's worth a thousand words, so here's another two thousand words on the issue. As I said on page four, I've run two hands-off games for exactly fifty years (ending on September 15, 1166 1116) with the following changes to vanilla:
1) The Holy War CB was completely scrapped.
2) The county-conquest CB was extended to be freely available to Christian (Catholic, Orthodox and Heretic) dukes and counts, but not kings or emperors, as long as the CB target was not Christian and the character has at least 50 piety.
The results were as follows:
Yeah. This speaks for itself, really.
(Note that the Lithuania in the first image was a revived Russian duchy. The original Lithuanians really get the kick almost as quickly as Nubia under this setup, or Lübeck for that matter.)
My conclusion is that Holy War either needs to go, or it shouldn't be as easy to invoke for such a huge profit. What's more, there should be war outcomes other than "harharhar I'm stealing all your land" - such as imposing tribute, or maybe forcing someone who isn't your liege to decrease crown authority, or adopt a certain succession law.
Now, my opinion is indeed subjective, but I think my reasoning is pretty much understandable. Yours, however, is not. You claimed that Pagans were silly powerful to the point of imbalance, that you can conquer Sweden with Lappland by only pressing fabricated claims, and that Scandinavia is easy pickings; then you suddenly changed your mind and suddenly Lappland is HARD and you prefer the challenge; you expressly said that CK2 is a game where you should be able to pick any ruler and do what you want, and not be confined to "historical accuracy" and then when I criticize that you cannot do anything as the Count of Lübeck, or many of the Northern Pagans, I'm suddenly wrong about enjoyment or something, even though we share the same opinion.
I don't follow. I also didn't get your pun.
1) The Holy War CB was completely scrapped.
2) The county-conquest CB was extended to be freely available to Christian (Catholic, Orthodox and Heretic) dukes and counts, but not kings or emperors, as long as the CB target was not Christian and the character has at least 50 piety.
The results were as follows:
Yeah. This speaks for itself, really.
(Note that the Lithuania in the first image was a revived Russian duchy. The original Lithuanians really get the kick almost as quickly as Nubia under this setup, or Lübeck for that matter.)
My conclusion is that Holy War either needs to go, or it shouldn't be as easy to invoke for such a huge profit. What's more, there should be war outcomes other than "harharhar I'm stealing all your land" - such as imposing tribute, or maybe forcing someone who isn't your liege to decrease crown authority, or adopt a certain succession law.
I've made my stance pretty clear, but I haven't claimed to be objective. Those are my opinions about a friggin' video game, for ChuChu's sake; of course they aren't going to be objective. I think that playing Pagans at the moment is pretty unfun because it's EXPAND OR DIE at the lowest possible level: total success or total failure. There's no room for diplomacy, no room for flavour, no room for subtlety, no room for shenanigans. You expand or you die - usually the latter. And all the while, it doesn't feel too different from playing Catholics, trading in some pretty strong CBs for considerably more levies. Except that said levies stink out loud when pitched against retinues, holy orders, and all non-Pagan levies because they're at tech level zero. Hell, you look up the Nakonids on Wikipedia, you'll see that some of them had a pretty turbulent life. In CK2, they are instantly eaten by Denmark and no-one bats an eyelash, not even the Emperor. This is another problem: there are no spheres of influence in CK2. You get the joint defenses in religious wars, and of course the de-jure mechanic, but that's it, and they aren't sufficient. If, say, Byzantium bites off a huge chunk of Croatia, Hungary is usually just fresh out of luck to do anything about that. This lack of repercussions, or any containment measures from outside, pretty much invites blobbing all over the place and hampers the element of diplomacy, which should be crucial to a character-driven game. That's it, that's my standpoint.Daelix said:
Now, my opinion is indeed subjective, but I think my reasoning is pretty much understandable. Yours, however, is not. You claimed that Pagans were silly powerful to the point of imbalance, that you can conquer Sweden with Lappland by only pressing fabricated claims, and that Scandinavia is easy pickings; then you suddenly changed your mind and suddenly Lappland is HARD and you prefer the challenge; you expressly said that CK2 is a game where you should be able to pick any ruler and do what you want, and not be confined to "historical accuracy" and then when I criticize that you cannot do anything as the Count of Lübeck, or many of the Northern Pagans, I'm suddenly wrong about enjoyment or something, even though we share the same opinion.
I don't follow. I also didn't get your pun.
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Agreed, but the problem here is that Paradox needs to make $10 for you to be able to do all that with Pagans. A Pagan DLC will surely add options, unique mechanics, and maybe, oh, I don't know, give Pagans families at the start of the game instead of just being random Bob the Pagan Chief with no wife, no kids, no friends, and no family, random stats, completely random councillors.......... Fixing that, at the very least, gives you options for forming alliances more quickly amongst pagan chiefs, diplomacy, inheritance, counter-roflstomping silly Christians who invade any of your 3 brothas from anotha motha...
Would be great, especially considering a bunch of families have ancestors going back to the 4th century (including a bunch of irish princes). Also "agnatic matrilineal" succession would be a cool addition - the kings being named from his wife's lineage was at least practiced in the pagan Canaries.
OMG CRAP I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT
Gotta make a game as the Pagan Canarias Chief and conquer EVERYTHING. Might be slightly challenging....
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But honestly what I hope for is that every pagan religion will get their own religion in the game, and that there is no religion simply called "Pagan". And yeah their religion did last to at least the 16th century, perhaps longer.
We currently have Tengri, Suomensko, Norse, Romuva, and some others I cant recall ATM so they are not all simply called "Pagan". I don`t think they have any peculiarities aside from different names though.
Mandé pagans, canarian pagans, historical arab pagans, and the lone Buddhist khan all in the game belong to a religion which is called "Pagan". For the historical characters and the lone guy it is fine, but for religions which are currently still popular in 1066 it is not. Paradox has also merged Slavic pagans into Romuva.
Graphical representation of Pagan non-lameness. I caused basically no interference other than occasionally defending another Pagan realm against Christian incursions so I could eat them later. Of course, the usual small independent realm problems are here - almost all the independent small realms, pagan or not, get snapped up the second their behemoth neighbors have a valid CB to do so. In other news, LOL Cumania.
Also, I loaded up my various Scandineighbors (booooo) and took snapshots of their military sizes compared to mine. This comparison is taken when 1 of my demesne and 3 of my total realm are under Recently Conquered. By comparison, Sweden and Denmark have 0 demesne/2 realm and 0 demesne/3 realm Recently Conquered.
Also, I loaded up my various Scandineighbors (booooo) and took snapshots of their military sizes compared to mine. This comparison is taken when 1 of my demesne and 3 of my total realm are under Recently Conquered. By comparison, Sweden and Denmark have 0 demesne/2 realm and 0 demesne/3 realm Recently Conquered.
How do you go about removing holy war exactly? I tried to delete the religious war in 00_cb_types and saved, but I'm still able to declare holy war (starting a new game)
It worked just fine...I edited \common\cbtypes\00_cbtypes\ and this isn't the first edit i've done to it (I didn't like genoa going crazy with the coastal city cb haha), I'm not sure why this CB won't disappear.
Weird that it worked. I'm not really a modder, but my initial instinct is to note that not 100% of the data on the CBs are included in this file. Some of it may be hard-coded.
However, the rules herein obviously matter if you've modded it before and seen a result. I wonder if by deleting the rules placed here if you actually just removed all restrictions on declaring Holy Wars? Going to test that. Also, I think the way to go for us text editors might be to just cut out the restriction against Christians using the County Conquest CB and use that as a template to add that same restriction against them using the Religious Conquest CB.
Disclaimer: save before editing. LOL.
However, the rules herein obviously matter if you've modded it before and seen a result. I wonder if by deleting the rules placed here if you actually just removed all restrictions on declaring Holy Wars? Going to test that. Also, I think the way to go for us text editors might be to just cut out the restriction against Christians using the County Conquest CB and use that as a template to add that same restriction against them using the Religious Conquest CB.
Disclaimer: save before editing. LOL.
BOOM. EZmode fix. I looked under the 'County_Conquest' CB and removed the following tag:
NOT = { religion_group = christian }
Then I went up to the 'Religious' CB and added it directly above
NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
though I suspect directly below would work as well. Result: Christians can no longer declare Holy War, but can spend 50 piety to invade a neighbor.
Edit: Uhhh, I also don't really understand the Muslim mechanics, but if the Muslims use this particular CB (they seem to have a set of stipulations that's more extensive?) and you don't want them to, I'm sure you could just add NOT = { religion_group = muslim } to the list.
NOT = { religion_group = christian }
Then I went up to the 'Religious' CB and added it directly above
NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
though I suspect directly below would work as well. Result: Christians can no longer declare Holy War, but can spend 50 piety to invade a neighbor.
Edit: Uhhh, I also don't really understand the Muslim mechanics, but if the Muslims use this particular CB (they seem to have a set of stipulations that's more extensive?) and you don't want them to, I'm sure you could just add NOT = { religion_group = muslim } to the list.
I figured out my problem, I forgot you can't just copy/paste a file in the same folder then edit the old one haha
I'm thinking rather then removing it it may be best to nerf it a good bit, I'm going to try and edit in that only zealous leaders can use it and it costs several hundred piety, I think some of the big mods do things like this already.
I'm thinking rather then removing it it may be best to nerf it a good bit, I'm going to try and edit in that only zealous leaders can use it and it costs several hundred piety, I think some of the big mods do things like this already.
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Don't worry, bud. Me and my 29 happy jaundiced friends are laughing WITH you. (I actually intentionally didn't ask you to check if you had actually edited the file)
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