Pagans are lame

[Myrkull]

I know that we must wait for Pagan DLC, but isn't there any chance for buffing pagans a bit in the next patch? Situation of baltic and norse pagans is pathetic, they are basically free lands for their christian neighbours. I think that giving restrictions for holy wars against pagans could help, and christians wouldn't get land for nothing.

Also, something should be done with demanding religious conversion for imprisoned character, they shouldn't always agree.

 

[Yenzen]

Well, you know, Norse and Pagan rulers in Scandinavia and up the Baltic sea didn't exactly last that long. Livonia was the last to fall in the 1200's and it never really stood a chance anyway.

 

[Divi]

Well, you know, Norse and Pagan rulers in Scandinavia and up the Baltic sea didn't exactly last that long. Livonia was the last to fall in the 1200's and it never really stood a chance anyway.

Lithuania never fell and was still pagan when it conquered most of Kievan Rus. It controlled a country the size of France when the king bothered to convert.

 

[yezhanquan]

I'm pretty sure Lithuania was the exception rather than the rule.

 

[istoptime]

On a side note the word pagan is dumb. Even when you put it in context of lets say the Catholic church viewing them as Pagans but then Muslims are Muslim but not Pagan? Numbers are what makes someones else's beliefs more valid? Anyway sorry I know this is off topic an me just being picky about vocabulary.

 

[n000b]

I'm pretty sure Lithuania was the exception rather than the rule.

Lithuania was pretty powerfull back them, definently not just some small "exception".

 

[yezhanquan]

From Wiki: Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic") is a blanket term typically used to refer to religious traditions which are polytheistic or indigenous. So, in context, the religions which are not monothestic (like the 3 Abrahamic fatihs) are labelled "pagan".

As for Lithuania, it was a big exception (in your words), but still an exception. I would probably think that geography played a big role. As the Mongols ravaged lands further east of the Grand Duchy, the lands of the Kievan Rus were relatively easy pickings.

 

[Boblof]

As for Lithuania, it was a big exception (in your words), but still an exception. I would probably think that geography played a big role. As the Mongols ravaged lands further east of the Grand Duchy, the lands of the Kievan Rus were relatively easy pickings.

That doesn't really detract from their achivement, Poland was much larger than the lithuanian tribe and they didn't do it, the Hungarians were much bigger than the lithuanian tribe and they didn't do it, all despite having an equal or better geographic startingpoint for doing so. And really it doesn't matter if it was down to geography alone, their demise wan't inevitable because it was demonstrably not inevitable.

Thing is that in game the baltic pagans last what? 10 years from 1066? In reality the baltic pagans that were conquored by christians were all conquored between the 12th and late 13th century, they were there 2-3 quarters of the period covered by CKII

 

[Casiru]

They really shouldn't get partitioned like they do atm, they are usually carved into parts of larger kingdoms before 1100. Imo holy wars and crusades territories should be given to a family member (or random courtier if you have no unlanded relatives) as an independant state unless they are De-Jure. There is no way medieval politics would allow for fully integrated holdings on the other side of europe like we have atm.

 

[High chief]

try The prince and the thane mod ...they added some great things to balance game and Pagans survive long long time, latest stable verson is 1.5.2(1.06b) and there will be new version(for 1.08) in january ..once i try it, dont play vanilla game any more, because its too unrealistic, in this mod you doesnt find HRE in Africa or similar bullshits ..sry for my english

 

[yezhanquan]

My guess is that with a simulated and simplified system, CK2 is unable to create conditions which allowed pagans to survive for a long period of time. If the Pope feels cranky enough, he can call for a crusade in the Baltics. But, I would reckon that the grey blob that is the HRE next door had a lot to do with pagans dying out early.

If you are counting in mods, I think PB does a pretty good job as well. In my game, the HRE went into Western Africa due to a crusade. But, yeah, I somehow managed to conquer the equivalent of the Malian Empire.

 

[Divi]

Poland also tends to go crusading early for Prussia, mostly because it's part of its de jure territory. IMO, the whole baltic coast shouldn't start the game as part of any de jure christian kingdom or empire.

 

[Red_warning]

Historically, the only thing Christian about Sweden in 1066 was the king and a few noble families (we got our first Christian king in 980). The majority of people, even in the south, was still pagan. So I hope that in an eventual pagan DLC the Christian lords and kings of Scandinavia will be able to revert back to their ancestral ways through decisions.

 

[Sian]

They really shouldn't get partitioned like they do atm, they are usually carved into parts of larger kingdoms before 1100. Imo holy wars and crusades territories should be given to a family member (or random courtier if you have no unlanded relatives) as an independant state unless they are De-Jure. There is no way medieval politics would allow for fully integrated holdings on the other side of europe like we have atm.

Danish Estonia ...

 

[Lwantssugar]

Ck2 plus makes it nearly impossible to holy war, as a catholic you need a papal sanction much like an invasion or have a very high piety (good luck with that though)

 

[yezhanquan]

Project Balance also puts brakes on holy wars.

 

[Wallain]

Well, you know, Norse and Pagan rulers in Scandinavia and up the Baltic sea didn't exactly last that long. Livonia was the last to fall in the 1200's and it never really stood a chance anyway.

You do realise the pagans were a plague for the entire Christian Baltic until most of them got conquered right? There is a reason Denmark conquered Wendland and Estonia - and it was not solely because of religious zeal.

 

[tuareg109]

I'm pretty sure Lithuania was the exception rather than the rule.

Even if it is just some small "exception", it completely disproves the rule.

 

[yezhanquan]

Even if it is just some small "exception", it completely disproves the rule.

Ok, maybe the term should be "rule of thumb" instead. Not very accurate, but good enough for the most part.

 

[Divi]

Danish Estonia ...

It was founded in the 13th century, and is represented by being separate from the kingdom of Lithuania anyway. Also the distance from Reval to Denmark is a lot less than some of the overseas empires this games forms (like Jerusalem under the HRE)

Also Lithuania was an enormous exception that spread from the the Baltic to the black sea.