Please rename Suomenusko and Romuva into Uralic and Baltic, respectively. The current names are eye-gouging in their inconsistency in relation to the other religions.
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Pagan religion names
- Thread starter SBolshevik
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You can't seriously compare English vs nativised names to spoons and scythes for dining.
Well, that isn't the point of my argument. I said that just because something is more popular, it isn't necessarily better; necessarily is the magical word here.
I, for one, like that one idea earlier in this thread. The one where Romuva and Suomenusko is called Baltic Beliefs and Ugric Beliefs at start. When reformed, their name changes to Romuva and Suomenusko respectively. It is true that it would be quite inaccurate, but lets be frank, that's the best we could have with the current engine. I would prefer this system over having both of them being named Suomenusko and Romuva all throughout the timeline.
Naming them Baltic Belief and Ugric Belief gives this feeling that the faith is not really a religion. More like a disjointed collection of beliefs. And when it is given a proper name after reformation, its gives the vibe where the beliefs were actually codified into a full blown religion.
Naming them Baltic Belief and Ugric Belief gives this feeling that the faith is not really a religion. More like a disjointed collection of beliefs. And when it is given a proper name after reformation, its gives the vibe where the beliefs were actually codified into a full blown religion.
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My biggest problem with it is that Suomenusko for example is an arbitrary name. Why? Because it's in Finnish, and it's not a name a Samoyed would use if he reformed the religion (granted, he would likely use something etymologically similar). The best thing would be renaming the religion according to your culture, the problem is that that is currently impossible. It would be a nice thing to see, though.
Yea, understandable. I also don't like the "Suomenusko" name. Directly translated it means "Finnish Belief". To be more specific for middle age terms, there was no overarching finnish people. There were finns, suoms, tavastians, kvens, etc. Suomenusko is therefore "Suoms Belieg". Thus, it doesn't stand even for all finnic people. I personally would like the "Suomenusko" to be replaced with "Maausk", which directly translated means something akin to "Land/earth Belief".
It'd certainly line up better with Ásatrú and Romuva. You'd need a Slavic religion name also, where one'd also end up using a bit of a neopaganish name like Rodnoverje. Alternatively, considering we know of a Slavic ethonym, it could be Slovenskaja Vera, and this form is the closest to the Proto-Slavic without using unconventional spelling conventions such as Slovênîskaja Vêra to represent the exact vowels (it also has no yer because that disappeared around a third through the timeframe).
In CK2 we have "Gardariki" - not "the kingdom of cities".
In CK2 we have "Ivan" - not "John".
In CK2 we have "Suleiman" - not "Salomon".
In vanilla CK2 works many names, without direct translation into English.
In CK2 we have "Ivan" - not "John".
In CK2 we have "Suleiman" - not "Salomon".
In vanilla CK2 works many names, without direct translation into English.
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Except those are names of a kind you generally don't translate, ever, not in English anyways; I've never heard of anyone calling Ivan the Terrible "John", or Suleyman the Lawgiver "Solomon". Not to mention that what we are pushing for isn't a translation of native names but different English names - Ásatrú would be "Faith of the Aesir", Suomenusko would be "Finnish Faith", etc.
The examples you give are very different from the case we're discussing. Religious names are shared by multiple cultures, and therefore allowing Germanic paganism to be called Ásatrú (a Norse name) when reformed by a Saxon, or allowing Finnic paganism to be called Suomenusko (a Finnish name) when reformed by an Estonian or Mordvin, would be incorrect and immersion breaking. Your examples all have cultural localisation for a reason; two of them are personal names (of course these are going to be different for different cultures, or would you wanna see characters like Caliph Aaron the Just?), and one is the name of a kingdom, which, again, is in the hands of one character (with one culture), so the localisation is understandable as well.
True, although I would rather see the different Paganisms named after the cultures of the adherents, so your examples would be the Germanic and Finnic faiths.
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No, that was a demostration of what the names would be if we were actually looking for direct translations, rather than ethnic names. I'm all for that concept.
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In the game it is possible to reform the Slavic faith by someone with the Nordic culture (Rurik Dynasty TOG scenario). So link religion and ethos is wrong.
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It is, but it's first and foremost the religion of the Slavs, not the Norse, therefore taking different cultures which are of a different religion into account is stupid.
Also, I'd argue that separating religion and culture when it comes to pagans is quite innaccurate. If we're not talking about some sort of fringe case (like a Slav in Iberia becoming Norse), you'd logically accept a part of the culture of the Germanic pagans alongside the religion, as holidays and certain traditions are bound to be related to the faith. Therefore, yes, the ethnicity and religion are very much interconnected.
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Paganism is very much a mix of religious and folk beliefs and the traditional custom of a people, and is therefore very much intertwined with the culture of that people. I therefore think it would be more realistic if, in game, only Germanic cultured characters could adhere to the Germanic religion, only Slavic cultured characters could adhere to the Slavic religion, etc. This could change after reformation, but as an unreformed pagan faith, it should definitely be impossible for just any character to become a follower of the Germanic faith. The faith just has too many customs and traditions which are unique to the Germanic cultures.
However, this is a topic for another discussion.
However, this is a topic for another discussion.
Those portraits seem based on modern East Baltic folks (Balts, Baltic Finns). I am not sure if this is how Magyars ever looked.
Maybe if you split them into Magyar (steppe culture) and Hungarian (settled culture), with Magyar using them and Hungarian staying as is. I'm not knowledgeable as to what the genetic composition of the Hétmagyar was from 769 to their migrations, though, so it might not be fully appropriate.
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IMHO, from someone who, for the most part, has multiple pictures of various different ethnic groups to compare more than entire towns, I find that the Khanty and Komi look quite a bit like the Baltic Finns do, barring traditional clothing which, although using similar dyes and patterns, is seemingly distinct based on particular regions. The Nenets are perhaps the most different-looking Uralic culture represented by the game.
I've seen people claim that the Ugrian group, the Khanty and Komi in-game, should use the Mongol portraits. In my experience, this is a massive exaggeration. My ultimate point being that I do believe the Finno-Ugric portrait pack could accurately represent the Magyar tribes based on what evidence I do have, including some facial reconstructions based on Magyar skulls that a Hungarian gentleman kindly showed to me.
This would be preferable, as the Magyar culture had a much higher degree of Turkic influence overall and a distinct ethnic stock from the modern Hungarians, who represent a mixed populace between Slavic and Ugric, with a Turkic-influenced Ugric culture with more Slavic elements than the steppe Magyars would've theoretically had.
The Khanty do seem to be partially mongoloid genetically, from what the magic Googol mashin gives, but the Mongol portraits still wouldn't be quite appropriate. The Googol mashin still gives very un-mongoloid Khanty as well.
The higher level of Hungarian culture would most likely be very Slavic and less Ugric, as testified by a large amount of vocabulary regarding rulership and administration, and also by István's bringing of Polish and Bohemian knights into Hungary post-Christianisation.
And, of course, the prevalence of Slavic tribes in the area prior to the Magyar invasion. Even under Avar administration, most people in the area identified as Slavic, having possibly pushed out the Illyrians who lived there prior, or possibly interbred or assimilated them.