Pagan Question

[crowdemon]

Some time ago, the Hellenic religion was removed from the game. I couldn't find the thread to explain why, but I hope Paradox or someone on here could answer my questions.

Since the Hellenic was removed, why doesn't the official wiki page for Crusader King 2 say anything about Hellenic been removed?

Is there any plans to revive the Hellenic religion in the future?

Will Paradox add more pagan religion like Anglo-Saxon Paganism, Celtic Polytheism, Arabia Pagans for future content?

 

[Bernard95]

Paradox said they didn't want to support it and do any bug fixing because it's a religion that was never entirely meant to be played seriously, so they removed it from the Ruler Designer. It's still there in the game's files hence why it's on the Wiki. Since it was barely fleshed out though, you're hardly losing anything by Paradox taking it out. If anything you might as well break out CK2+ or Ancient Religions if you wanted to play with it, but as you might imagine some people on these forums were enraged for a bit.

 

[Kapitalisti]

Will Paradox add more pagan religion like Anglo-Saxon Paganism, Celtic Polytheism, Arabia Pagans for future content?

Most likely not, maybe in CK3. But anyways, Anglo-Saxon paganism is pretty much just Germanic, Ancient Religions adds Celtic and Egyptian paganism (along with the stuff for Hellenic) and CK2+ adds those and Arabic, Berber and Canaanite paganism to boot.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Some time ago, the Hellenic religion was removed from the game. I couldn't find the thread to explain why, but I hope Paradox or someone on here could answer my questions.

Since the Hellenic was removed, why doesn't the official wiki page for Crusader King 2 say anything about Hellenic been removed?

Is there any plans to revive the Hellenic religion in the future?

Will Paradox add more pagan religion like Anglo-Saxon Paganism, Celtic Polytheism, Arabia Pagans for future content?

Almost certainly not - keeping long dead religions (or at least religions that had no noticable following amongst the nobility, or on a noticable provincial scale) active, balanced, and up to date is work time that could be spent on making other features relevant to the main game work better.

Anglo-Saxon paganism is practically Germanic (and certainly to the degree the game models it, it'd be a variation - the same gods under different names, the same general approach, and a few different gods absorbed from the previous strata -- also why it's now Germanic, and not Norse); Celtic Polytheism had been erased as an active, live religion; as for Arabic Paganism, if you know of any major nobles or major areas that held to one of those faiths during the game period, pass it on to Paradox, and see if they consider it worth adding - the same for any other religious groupings that you might find.

 

[Djaevlenselv]

The only reason Paradox could possibly have to put Celtic or Arabic polytheism in the game would be if the timeline was moved sufficiently far back for those religions to still have been alive in sufficiently high numbers to justify at least one ruler or province having it. I think both of those religions would have been extinct around, what, 600 CE? Arabic polytheism would have been mostly stamped out by Muhammed's death, I think, since Arabia was then ruled by Muslims who were very hostile to the pre-Islamic religion. The last of the polytheistic celts were to my knowledge the picts and I think the pictish kings got converted in the late 6th century.

 

[nkibilko]

Some time ago, the Hellenic religion was removed from the game. I couldn't find the thread to explain why, but I hope Paradox or someone on here could answer my questions.

Since the Hellenic was removed, why doesn't the official wiki page for Crusader King 2 say anything about Hellenic been removed?

Is there any plans to revive the Hellenic religion in the future?

Will Paradox add more pagan religion like Anglo-Saxon Paganism, Celtic Polytheism, Arabia Pagans for future content?

I think it's safe to assume that no new religions will be added for the rest of this game's life... Any extra religions you want would have to be added by modding.

I actually made a mod with a proper germanic pagan religion (Norse is a separate religion, called NORSE), but it's broken because of patches... If you want to update it, go ahead! I don't care about credit.

Here's the link, the mod works for the CK2 version at or right after charlemagne, i think. Honestly the most proper germanic paganism i've ever seen, that's why i made it.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=433531634

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Celtic, Egyptian, and Arabic polytheism was all long-dead even by the earliest start date, and Hellenism was so faint it can't even be granted a barony.

Hellenism can't even be reformed, because Julian the Apostate already did that.

 

[Karlingid]

Celtic, Egyptian, and Arabic polytheism was all long-dead even by the earliest start date, and Hellenism was so faint it can't even be granted a barony.

Hellenism can't even be reformed, because Julian the Apostate already did that.

Arabian paganism wasn't quite dead, and Hellenism still had a following among the Maniotes until the reign of Basil I, meaning that in the Charlemagne start, they would indeed be Hellenic. Anything afterwards, however, and they're gone.

The only reason Paradox could possibly have to put Celtic or Arabic polytheism in the game would be if the timeline was moved sufficiently far back for those religions to still have been alive in sufficiently high numbers to justify at least one ruler or province having it. I think both of those religions would have been extinct around, what, 600 CE? Arabic polytheism would have been mostly stamped out by Muhammed's death, I think, since Arabia was then ruled by Muslims who were very hostile to the pre-Islamic religion. The last of the polytheistic celts were to my knowledge the picts and I think the pictish kings got converted in the late 6th century.

Almost certainly not - keeping long dead religions (or at least religions that had no noticable following amongst the nobility, or on a noticable provincial scale) active, balanced, and up to date is work time that could be spent on making other features relevant to the main game work better.

Anglo-Saxon paganism is practically Germanic (and certainly to the degree the game models it, it'd be a variation - the same gods under different names, the same general approach, and a few different gods absorbed from the previous strata -- also why it's now Germanic, and not Norse); Celtic Polytheism had been erased as an active, live religion; as for Arabic Paganism, if you know of any major nobles or major areas that held to one of those faiths during the game period, pass it on to Paradox, and see if they consider it worth adding - the same for any other religious groupings that you might find.

After the destruction of Dhul Khalasa, one of the last pagan holy sites in Arabia, the Muslims seem to have sorta forgot to convert the people left behind. They were said to have rebuilt the temple, and, according to Kamal Salibi, were finally exterminated in 1815.

While Kamal Salibi could, understandably, be considered a questionable source (although I'm sure he did some research regarding the matter), the Mughal work Dabestān-e Mazāheb recognizes the existence of Arab pagans into the times that it was written, that being the 17th century and after the end of the CK2 start date. The general point is that they did indeed survive, if only on a small scale (perhaps a single province's worth of existence)

 

[Heinrich4]

The only reason Paradox could possibly have to put Celtic or Arabic polytheism in the game would be if the timeline was moved sufficiently far back for those religions to still have been alive in sufficiently high numbers to justify at least one ruler or province having it. I think both of those religions would have been extinct around, what, 600 CE? Arabic polytheism would have been mostly stamped out by Muhammed's death, I think, since Arabia was then ruled by Muslims who were very hostile to the pre-Islamic religion. The last of the polytheistic celts were to my knowledge the picts and I think the pictish kings got converted in the late 6th century.

It was said multiple times by paradox members that they dont want to extent the timeline anymore.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

After the destruction of Dhul Khalasa, one of the last pagan holy sites in Arabia, the Muslims seem to have sorta forgot to convert the people left behind. They were said to have rebuilt the temple, and, according to Kamal Salibi, were finally exterminated in 1815.

While Kamal Salibi could, understandably, be considered a questionable source (although I'm sure he did some research regarding the matter), the Mughal work Dabestān-e Mazāheb recognizes the existence of Arab pagans into the times that it was written, that being the 17th century and after the end of the CK2 start date. The general point is that they did indeed survive, if only on a small scale (perhaps a single province's worth of existence)

Now that's a little more like it. Is it a single province (and thus enough to possibly spawn characters and culture, with hopefully a ruler of its culture), or would it be a single holding (and thus likely to just be converted or revoked immediately)?

 

[Zsrai]

Now that's a little more like it. Is it a single province (and thus enough to possibly spawn characters and culture, with hopefully a ruler of its culture), or would it be a single holding (and thus likely to just be converted or revoked immediately)?

My guess is that it was more likely just among the desert tribesmen, so wouldn't even really be a full holding, let alone a province. It's the same with the Maniotes, really. Yeah some were around but not on a big enough scale to actually be represented in the game. Certainly not on a big enough scale to warrant any dev attention (they have enough problems to deal with as it is).

 

[Karlingid]

My guess is that it was more likely just among the desert tribesmen, so wouldn't even really be a full holding, let alone a province. It's the same with the Maniotes, really. Yeah some were around but not on a big enough scale to actually be represented in the game. Certainly not on a big enough scale to warrant any dev attention (they have enough problems to deal with as it is).

The province it is in is Asir, just north of Yemen. One could make plentiful arguments about the size for the game.
The tribes in question which are said to have continued practice are the Khath'am and the Daws:

Their main opponents in the Asir region would be the Azd, which they seem to outnumber. It's really up for debate, then, whether it should just be a temple holding or a full province, but by land size at least, the province would win out.


As for the Maniotes, it'd almost certainly be a baron, rather than the full province (which includes more important cities). Even still, it should be recognized. I say as a barony, and not as a city, because as a city the Hellene would be replaced quickly and without need for action, drawing from the province's culture. A barony, apart from the fact that Mani had a semi-famous castle, also allows the Hellenes to continue on with their own Hellenic court and heirs until action is taken to stop them, or to allow them to grow.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

There is no possible way the Maniots could be a barony on CK2's scale.

Remember, this is the CK2 province:

The three holdings are Monemvasia, the seat of Imperial government, the 'city' of Arcadia, a stand-in for the upper half of the province, and the bishopric of Nikli, where the metropolitan bishop over the area resided.

There's not even a holding for Sparta, no way is there justification for a barony for the tiny, isolated communities of Hellene Maniots.

 

[Karlingid]

There is no possible way the Maniots could be a barony on CK2's scale.

Remember, this is the CK2 province:

Sparta, by this time, had been all but killed off. The city itself was in ruins, with a village surrounding them. It did not see any sort of revitalization or reemergence to importance until 1834, when King Otto put in efforts to give it back life. Today, it has less than 20,000 permanent residents.

The three holdings are Monemvasia, the seat of Imperial government, the 'city' of Arcadia, a stand-in for the upper half of the province, and the bishopric of Nikli, where the metropolitan bishop over the area resided.

There's not even a holding for Sparta, no way is there justification for a barony for the tiny, isolated communities of Hellene Maniots.

Arcadia is in the wrong spot, Monemvasia is on the wrong peninsula, and Nikli is in the North. The Mani peninsula is completely empty, and so a barony could easily be moved to represent what is almost half of the entire province.

Not only COULD it support a barony, but it even had one of historical significance. It featured in a battle of its own

Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs, but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation.

-De Administrato Imperio or For My Son, Romanos, about 950 CE/AD

In this quote, not only do we see how recent the conversion of the Hellenes are (having been done under the reign of Basil I, which ends a bit after the Old Gods start), but that there was a castle there even predating the Frankish invasions and construction across Greece. A minor castle in a province, one that does not represent the main holding but instead a smaller or less significant holding, is a barony by the game's terms. The Mani peninsula and the surrounding area, taking up 33%-50% of the province and completely unrepresented by current holdings, could easily take the form of a barony gaining money from Mani's famous olives.

To summarize, here are the current holdings in the province on a map: The Mani region has a blue outline. The CK2 province has a black outline. Cities and titles in black.

 

[Zsrai]

This is a fight that's already been lost. You do know that, right?

 

[Djaevlenselv]

Arcadia is in the wrong spot, Monemvasia is on the wrong peninsula, and Nikli is in the North. The Mani peninsula is completely empty, and so a barony could easily be moved to represent what is almost half of the entire province.

Not only COULD it support a barony, but it even had one of historical significance. It featured in a battle of its own



-De Administrato Imperio or For My Son, Romanos, about 950 CE/AD

In this quote, not only do we see how recent the conversion of the Hellenes are (having been done under the reign of Basil I, which ends a bit after the Old Gods start), but that there was a castle there even predating the Frankish invasions and construction across Greece. A minor castle in a province, one that does not represent the main holding but instead a smaller or less significant holding, is a barony by the game's terms. The Mani peninsula and the surrounding area, taking up 33%-50% of the province and completely unrepresented by current holdings, could easily take the form of a barony gaining money from Mani's famous olives.

To summarize, here are the current holdings in the province on a map: The Mani region has a blue outline. The CK2 province has a black outline. Cities and titles in black.

So, what you're implicitly suggesting, I take it, is that Arcadia could rightly be moved to methone and a "Mani" or possibly "Tegani" barony placed in it's stead?

 

[Rationalsanity]

Really? Are people still clamoring for those long dead religions to get official support? Just download the Ancient Religion mod.

 

[Karlingid]

Really? Are people still clamoring for those long dead religions to get official support? Just download the Ancient Religion mod.

....The entire point of this thread is that, around the Charlemagne and Old Gods starts, these religions weren't actually dead.

So, what you're implicitly suggesting, I take it, is that Arcadia could rightly be moved to methone and a "Mani" or possibly "Tegani" barony placed in it's stead?

It is entirely possible, considering that Arcadia isn't in the right province (Whereas the city known as "Arkadia" during the Byzantine era did exist independent of the region which bears the same name), and a large chunk of the province is entirely unrepresented.

This is a fight that's already been lost. You do know that, right?

I know. Doesn't stop me from pointing it out, though.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Arcadia is in the wrong spot

Kyparissia is where it's supposed to be.

 

[Zsrai]

....The entire point of this thread is that, around the Charlemagne and Old Gods starts, these religions weren't actually dead.

In practice, they were. It doesn't matter if there were small hold outs, because they obviously had zero historical significance. They aren't even a footnote.

I know. Doesn't stop me from pointing it out, though.

It should, because it's not going to change.