Pagan improvements

[vyshan]

Some thoughts for Pagans. Most of what I did get for these faiths, I got by scanning Wikipedia. I do appreciate any and all help from those that are familiar for more ideas as to how to improve these faiths. If I get any more ideas I will add them to this list.

All pagans
Offering festivals: These will reperesent larger and more elaborate sacrifices to the gods and goddesses of your faith, or the faith of other pagans under your control.

You will get a decision to do a sacrifices, and you get to decide who and what you offering to. Are you making a sacrifice to Frey for Fertility or are you sacrificing to Perun for victory in battle, or to more local gods of the province for happiness in said province and so on.

When the priest comes back it can be clear or cryptic, but in either case the Gods have provided an answer to your question. Thus you gain a bonus, or rarely, a negative to your question. So again, if you asked for Perun to grant you victory then you get a bonus to troop moral, a bonus to fertility if you asked Frey for fertility and so on. The bonuses are not all that great but a nice bonus that can sway things. It is weighted in your favor if the priest is your friend, and against you if he/she is your rival and hates your guts.

Minor Offerings: These represent more minor offerings that can be done at almost any time. In contrast to the Offering festivals above, these would be to the Gods in general. In effect it would function like either the indulgence or Sadaqah decision, where you pay money(Goats, chickens, cows and horses are expensive) to perform a general sacrifice to gain piety. If reformed with a head of the faith, then you gain a bonus with them.

Learn Magic: From what I can find, it seems that a number of pagan faiths tend to be more highly appreciative of magic. Mages and other mystics had more of a role in their societies. Thus one should have the option to learn magic, be it Seidr or the rites of a shaman and so on. Now there might be cultural taboos for example(women are fine learn Seidr but men get a prestige penalty and a vassal penalty since it is unmanly).

If you have a court Shaman, Volva and so on, they might ask you to teach someone in your family who is suitable to learning the magical arts. Again cultural values matter here, still general concept should apply to most. You would also be able to seek out a wise shaman, Volva, and other mystic people of how like Indians can seek out a Guru.

Court Chaplin action – Perform Augury: This is a new action for the pagan court Chaplin. Where your Court Chaplin(what ever he or she is called) is sent to a province to perform Auguries, Divination, sacrifices and the like for the local people. In general it would function similar to the Muslim action of giving charity, so it helps over all lower revolt risk(the peasants like active priests doing sacrifices) with successes giving piety bonus or relations with a vassals; failure can make the peasants upset and mob the priest or embezzling money(goats, horses, and other animals cost money to sacrifice)

Slavic
Festivals: There should be some more festivals then the Jarlio festival. Thus:

• Dziady: This festival was done twice a year once in spring and once in Autumn. This festival honors the dead. As a festival, you would invite your family members and vassals to come and partake in the festivities. At night there would be offerings to your decesed relatives and more feasting to remember their victories and seeking their aid.
  
• Kupala Night: A Summer festival. From what I can gather it involves couples doing bonfire jumping, finding fernleaves for good luck, power, and prosperity. Tossing Garlands down a river with candles on them seem to be something else that was done according to wikipedia.

Construct a Bałwan: Balwans are large pillars that are typically dedicated to a deity. This would function similar to the Norse Runestone mechanics. You get to dedicate to one deity of the slavic gods and goddesses to gain some benefits similar to the Runestone.

Baltic
Festivals:

• Ilgės: The autumn festival of the dead. Offerings, libations, songs, and toasts were given to the dead.
• Rasos: Similar to Kupala Night from what I can tell. It involves feasting, sacrifices, jumping over bonfires.

Vaidelutės: From what I can find, these were the sacred priestesses that tended to the hearth fires of the Goddess Gabija. Hearth fires played a central role in the life of baltic people and they were to take care of it. The order from what I can gather was similar somewhat to the Vestal Virigins of the Romans. Perhaps this is something that requires the reformed Romuva faith?

Snakes: Snakes seemed to be a highly auspicious creature among the baltic pagans from what I can find. They were honored and apparently kept around the home. I also read that the Vaidelutės who took care of the hearth also took care of these grass snakes. So perhaps some events related to them?

Heroic Cults: Pious Baltic Pagans should be able to be declared local gods or Goddesses. I believe that CK2+ has a sainthood, so using that mechanic should work for the baltic pagans.

Finnic
Festivals:

• Karhunpeijaiset: A festival that can be done at any time to celebrate the successful hunt of a bear and wish the bear a quick speed back to the forest. There was a feast following which the bones would buried and the skull placed on a pine tree.

Bear Cult: From what I can gather bears tend to play a major role in Finnic religions. They were one of the most widely respected and honored animals in their faith. There should be some events relating to this, as well as the festival when a bear is hunted, well brought down in Finnic belief.

Reincarnation: It seems that the Finnic people believed in reincarnation so perhaps they should get a reflavor of the reincarnation event that Indians get.

Norse
Shieldmaidens: Martial women can seek to become warriors. This is something that IIRC is in CK2+ and I think it could be nice to have them in Vanilla.
Festivals:

• Yule/Winter Nights: This would be a festival that occurs in Winter. There would be Drinking and feasts and sacrifices.
  
• Dísablót: This is a late winter and spring festival around February or March, in honor of the Dísir, the female spirits of importance. There was feasting and sacrifices for the peace they had and victory that they would gain. With the festival came the market fair, known as the Disting.

 

[moscal]

IMO reformed paganism need more differences than primitive paganism.

If you are primitive pagan - you can dancing naked in forest, jump over fire etc. But for modernized religion this behavior is unacceptable (especially in the later era).

 

[Narvait]

IMO reformed paganism need more differences than primitive paganism.

If you are primitive pagan - you can dancing naked in forest, jump over fire etc. But for modernized religion this behavior is unacceptable (especially in the later era).

For modernized religion of Abrahamic type perhaps. But in alternative World where pagans reform Abrahamic thoughts on nakedness or jumping over fire should not bother people much.

 

[Narvait]

Vyshan, I am not sure why Heroic Cults for Balts and Balts only?

As a Balt I like this idea, just not sure why such honor it seems general pan-IndoEuropean thing.

 

[moscal]

For modernized religion of Abrahamic type perhaps. But in alternative World where pagans reform Abrahamic thoughts on nakedness or jumping over fire should not bother people much.

You read the description of the pagan reformation in the game? Modernizing beliefs, based on the abrahamic religions.

Why? To Christians and Muslims they do not recognize you as savage and primitive. Modernizing religion precisely that more developed civilizations have less reason to extermination.

 

[Narvait]

You read the description of the pagan reformation in the game? Modernizing beliefs, based on the abrahamic religions.

Why? To Christians and Muslims they do not recognize you as savage and primitive. Modernizing religion precisely that more developed civilizations have less reason to extermination.

No, it does not say so.

Edit: there are also no in-game effects to reformation that you described. No opinion boost from Muslims/Christians for having reformed vs unreformed.
No decreased probability for holy wars/ Crusades/Jihads on reformed vs unreformed.

 

[Damarrocarion]

Modernizing beliefs, based on the abrahamic religions.

No, just saying Pagan church writes an Orthodox holy book and enforces "standard of religion" rather than everyone making stuff up as they go along, like Abrahamic faith.

 

[moscal]

No, just saying Pagan church writes an Orthodox holy book and enforces "standard of religion" rather than everyone making stuff up as they go along, like Abrahamic faith.

norse_pagan_reformed_DESC;The reformed Norse Pagan faith has a Holy Book written in runes with chapters on Creation, the gods, Ragnarok, and secret spells - 'galdrs'. The church has a standardized liturgy and a formal church hierarchy led by the Fylkir, who - much like an Islamic Caliph - is both a secular ruler and the religious leader of the faithful

tengri_pagan_reformed_DESC;The reformed Tengri faith has a Holy Book written in the Orkhon runic script, a standardized liturgy and a formal church hierarchy led by the High Priest of Tengri, who can be vassalized by secular rulers.

baltic_pagan_reformed_DESC;The reformed Baltic faith has a Holy Book with a creation myth, chapters on the gods and a book of prophesies. The church also has a standardized liturgy and a formal church hierarchy led by the High Priest of Dievs, who can be vassalized by secular rulers

So
A) One canon of Holy Books (standard in abrahamic religions; in other organized religions is not restrictive)
B) One church hierarchy (standard in christian churches; in other organized religions hierarchy is practically nonexistent or "hierarchy" is contractual and based on personal authority non top-down system)
C) Existence of chief priest (standard in catholicism and orthodoxy and few state-religion, beyond knowledge of early medieval pagans)
D) Fylkir status (secular and church leader is this same person - early medieval pagans could see this only from Muslims)

Anyway - after reform pagan religion need more flavour (head of religion and GHW this is too small).

 

[Narvait]

Ok, they decided to consolidate religion like organized religions around them. But why do you think they would take upon Abrahamic ideas on nudity and fire?

It might as well be that Balts were difficult to convert (main in-game result of reformation) exactly because they were "reformed":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romuva_(temple)

And getting back to initial argument:
putting someone in holy water to purify from sins - advanced, civilized?
jumping through the holy fire to purify from weaknesses and cowardice - savage?

 

[vyshan]

Vyshan, I am not sure why Heroic Cults for Balts and Balts only?

As a Balt I like this idea, just not sure why such honor it seems general pan-IndoEuropean thing.

Ah. I can add it for everyone then. Mostly it was based on the Sainthood mechanic that ck2+ has, that I thought would be good. I added it to balts, because that is what I found on my wikipedia search. But I can add it to the other faiths.

As for the reformation I wasn't focusing on that as I wanted flavor in general for the pagan faiths. Moreover, I do not like that mechanic at all. I personally would remove it and tie their limits to being tribal.

 

[Ciniod]

Dont have time to read right now, but ill just point out that you can randomly get an event as Suomenusko that your men have killed the bear that was terrorizing locals and it gives you an option to perform a feast for it or something that gives 100 prestige and costs 50 gold. Though I think it could probably be elaborated.

 

[moscal]

Ok, they decided to consolidate religion like organized religions around them. But why do you think they would take upon Abrahamic ideas on nudity and fire?

Cannot exist in "old style", because it was too wild, disorganized, coarse. Look at "Kupala Night"

Imagine that arrives ambassador of catholic France to reformed pagan Poland. He was invited, because the king of France received the news that the Slavs reformed their religion and do not want to be considered as savages. What the ambassador writes to France, seeing this ritual? "This is barbarian people and barbarous traditions. Poles are wild people, no chance for future. Extermination of them would be a good deed for the world."

The same would say byzantine ambassador or ambassador of Caliphate. Effect? Isolation.

 

[Narvait]

Do you think Christian Europeans did not have festivities with lots of alcohol consumption?

For how this reformed thing might have looked like for solemn ritual, you might check this:

(Saule, Pērkons, Daugava).
or this

(Dod Dieviņi, more folk based)

Baltic sacred places had "rām-" in root, which means "serene, calm". Our holy groves were the place where:
"Caur sidraba birzi gāju, ne zariņa nenolauzu" ("through silver birch I walked, not a broom I broke"). If however someone did brake a broom, well some good Christian martyrs know better )).
Even like 200 years after Livonian Order established Christian state in Latvia, in Curonia it was forbidden to do any activity in holy forests both to locals and Livonian Order brethren alike.

But yeah, Midsummer Feast was rather crazy stuff, devoted to fertility. Even today in Latvia most people are born in March (9 months after Midsummer Night). In old days:
"Jāņu naktī nezināju, kura sieva, kura meita" ("In Jāņi night I did not know who is (married) wife who is (non-married) woman"). Because it was the only night a year where married woman could wear flower "vainags" instead of married woman head dress ("To take off vainags" - means "to take virginity").

 

[vyshan]

Baltic sacred places had "rām-" in root, which means "serene, calm". Our holy groves were the place where:
"Caur sidraba birzi gāju, ne zariņa nenolauzu" ("through silver birch I walked, not a broom I broke"). If however someone did brake a broom, well some good Christian martyrs know better )).
Even like 200 years after Livonian Order established Christian state in Latvia, in Curonia it was forbidden to do any activity in holy forests both to locals and Livonian Order brethren alike.

But yeah, Midsummer Feast was rather crazy stuff, devoted to fertility. Even today in Latvia most people are born in March (9 months after Midsummer Night). In old days:
"Jāņu naktī nezināju, kura sieva, kura meita" ("In Jāņi night I did not know who is (married) wife who is (non-married) woman"). Because it was the only night a year where married woman could wear flower "vainags" instead of married woman head dress ("To take off vainags" - means "to take virginity").

I am working on making this a submod; still I have posted them here so that they can be used in Vanilla. But these give me some ideas for events. thanks

As for holy forests, how do you think they should be handled in ck2?

 

[shiro the bushi]

I am working on making this a submod; still I have posted them here so that they can be used in Vanilla. But these give me some ideas for events. thanks

As for holy forests, how do you think they should be handled in ck2?

ive seen the request for secondary holy sites to be put into the game, in modding terms you place them as a county modifier for piety and moral which appears if top liege is of that faith possibly

 

[Narvait]

The holy forests... Id say only in events. Because each in- game province would have like over 10 of those in real life.
So, does not make sense to "build" them.

There could be event when you siege all buildings in (or conquer) province as Christian to destroy those things with some positive and negative results (ie province modifiers).

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

I have an idea for pagans. A lot of the pagans celebrated winter and summer soltices. So why not have this as a regular event each year same time. When the event happens, the reciever has three options:

• Spend as little money on it as possible (a hit to prestige, but no money spent)
• Spend medium amount of money on it (few coins are lost, but a little prestige is earned)
• Hold a lavish celebration (lots of money is used and lots of prestige is earned)

 

[Patroclusmega]

A) One canon of Holy Books (standard in abrahamic religions; in other organized religions is not restrictive)

That's false for two of the major abrahamitic religion: Islam: Only quranism is based ONLY on Quran, and they were and are a very very small minority(Also if very
interesting,as female imams and other things). Both Sunni and Shia believe(d) also in the Sunna who was compiled years after the death of Mohammad. Hebraism: For hebraism the explaination is a bit more complicate, so I suggest you to search more on term as Talmud, Torah and Tanakh. Anyway there were more than one holy book. Catholicism : Well, this apply well for medieval Catholicism, because even if the writing of the Fathers of the Church and the outcome of the various councils were taken very seriously the only "holy book" was the Bible. This changed only on 1566 with the Roman Catechism(that in 1992 was replaced by a new cathechism, the CCC(Catechism of the Catholic Church).

B) One church hierarchy (standard in christian churches; in other organized religions hierarchy is practically nonexistent or "hierarchy" is contractual and based on personal authority non top-down system)

False, just think at the roman Pontifex Maximus or at Jewish High priesthood.

C) Existence of chief priest (standard in catholicism and orthodoxy and few state-religion, beyond knowledge of early medieval pagans)

i didn't get this, may you rephrase it please?

D) Fylkir status (secular and church leader is this same person - early medieval pagans could see this only from Muslims)

From Augustus to Graziano(I don't know how he is called in English) the emperor take the title of Pontifex Maximus with all the power and duties that it involves.(Except for Christian emperors, obviously the title under them hadn't any power related to it anymore. Lat Graziano, zealous Christian, renounced to this title and the bishop of Rome (Pope) decided to assume the role, so your statement is false.

 

[moscal]

That's false for two of the major abrahamitic religion: Islam: Only quranism is based ONLY on Quran, and they were and are a very very small minority(Also if very interesting,as female imams and other things). Both Sunni and Shia believe(d) also in the Sunna who was compiled years after the death of Mohammad. Hebraism: For hebraism the explaination is a bit more complicate, so I suggest you to search more on term as Talmud, Torah and Tanakh. Anyway there were more than one holy book. Catholicism : Well, this apply well for medieval Catholicism, because even if the writing of the Fathers of the Church and the outcome of the various councils were taken very seriously the only "holy book" was the Bible. This changed only on 1566 with the Roman Catechism(that in 1992 was replaced by a new cathechism, the CCC(Catechism of the Catholic Church).

Canon of Holy Books is... canon of Holy Books. No one will say that this catechism, talmud or sunna is the holy book.
Catechism, talmud, etc. is a collection of traditional interpretations, summaries, etc. Dont have status of Holy Books like a Pentateuch or Quran. Catechism can be changed, you can add new chapters, etc. BUT nobody can give "Sixth Book of Moses" to Pentateuch or remove "Genesis". Even if somebody does so, it would be heresy. This is quite different in eg. Far East. religons.

False, just think at the roman Pontifex Maximus or at Jewish High priesthood.

Existence of religious heads is not the same as a strict hierarchy... Otherwise - dead in the Middle Ages (mimicry impossible). Ergo? Ahistoricism

i didn't get this, may you rephrase it please?

¿Qué?


Think - how to make a copy of the structure of the ancient Egyptian religion, when this religion is dead for hundreds of years? And you sit in the far Finland or on the Steppe, and you do not have any knowledge about it. You can imitate what you know. You know a little structure Christian churches and Islam. Zunist can reformed in way like a hinduism or buddism, but nordicism/astaru? Vikings had no idea of ancient Rome, in order to copy solutions Romans.

If the Vikings can reformed their faith based on ancient Rome - why not give them political reform to state like a Roman Republic, not feudalization?

 

[moscal]

Do you think Christian Europeans did not have festivities with lots of alcohol consumption?

Volkish festival isnt religious ritual... Spring Festival is not the same as the Paschal Triduum

IMO - reformed church pagan want to have power and control similar to the christian church. So all major holidays have been heavily described. Minors would have less restrictions. Pagan reformation = end of wildness and freedom in religious practices (also private). So your video is good. But this, what actually gives CK2 TOG, is not enough.