Pacifism is in a sorry state. Please help.

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Marmelado

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This is a pretty long read, almost an article. I explain how Stellaris version of Pacifism doesn’t work, why it is like that and what can be done about it. For your convenience, I broke it in several parts.

Part 1: What's wrong with Pacifism?

Of the eight ethics in Stellaris, Pacifism is by far the least functional. This is true both for mechanics of the game and roleplay experience.

In terms of mechanics, other seven ethics are more beneficial. Some are slightly better, some are worse, but, overall, each ethic offers some advantage. Xenophobia has early rush benefits. Xenophilia focuses on diplomacy. Materialism benefits tech rush. Spiritualism helps with unity production. Authoritarianism gets more base resources. Egalitarianism has stronger advanced economy. Militarism offers advantages in war. Each ethic offers something tangible and forms a distinctive playstyle.

Then there is Pacifism, a laughing stock of the eight. Extra stability is nice to have, but hardly the game changer as the stability is rarely a problem. If pressed you can raise it anyway with the abundant sources of extra happiness. -15% and -30% malus from the population size is a better thing to have, but the benefits are not that impressive. The benefits only kick in once you pass the administrative cap and the efficiency of the bonus depends on the border situation. If you are small and have a smaller population, you don’t get as much as you would get if you were large.

Of course, the crippling disadvantage of Pacifism is inability to wage war and expand as quickly as anyone else. Regular Pacifists can conquer in a masochistic busy-work cycle of liberation, vassalization and integration. Fanatic Pacifists can’t do even that. You either have to look for diplomatic solutions that may not be available in certain Galaxies, or you need to change ethics ASAP. Sure, some players may say that ethic change is a natural way to deal with this situation. Yet, when it comes to switching ethics, Pacifism seems to be the one changed the most. How many times have you switched from Militarism?

This is an additional point to consider. Counterpart ethics like Authoritarianism and Egalitarianism are more or less balanced against each other. It is not a perfect balance in each case, but it works more or less. As for Militarism and Pacifism, there is double imbalance in Militarism’s favor. Militarists not only can wage war while Pacifists can’t, but Militarists are also much better at war. They enjoy benefits of fire rate, naval capacity and so on. Pacifists, on the other hand, experience high war exhaustion. It is a logical outcome, of course, but since Pacifism has zero counterplay it may as well be removed from the game.

As for roleplay experience, Pacifism doesn’t do much better. Other ethics have clear identities and it is clear what they are about. There are special events, buildings, flavor text and many other little details giving an impression of playing particular ethic. By mid-game you can usually see what you are playing: Xenophobes have no alien specialists and rulers, Authoritarians have vast slaver networks, Materialists have lots of droids and so on. Pacifists have nothing. They are aggressively (ha-ha) average in how they feel. The only unique and fun mechanic they have is pacification of some space fauna, not even all of it.

Ethic description and government type indicate some sort of “Moral” like “Moral Democracy”, but there is no sense of superior morality to Pacifists. They may be generally non-violent, but it doesn’t feel like Pacifists do anything for moral reasons. If anything, they just come off as lazy hypocritical cowards, especially if they are on the slaving/purging side. Then there is the “Prosperity” angle in faction name, even though the economy or living standards advantages of the Pacifism are minor at best. Meaning there is no real identity to Stellaris Pacifism because it is too vague to describe.

A small, but telling example of how Pacifism is broken: when Paradox wanted to give some small flavor benefits to culture workers based on ethics, they had no problem choosing benefits for seven ethics and the problematic one was Pacifism. At first they wanted to give it the crime reduction and later changed it to small amount of trade value. Both choices are generic and not particularly valuable, just like Pacifism itself.

So, in conclusion, Pacifism is just a chewing toy among the ethics. Its mechanical benefits are either worthless or contextual. Its mechanical disadvantages are crippling. Its roleplay identity is both bland and vague. It doesn’t offer much to play with.

Part 2: Why current Pacifism doesn't work as an ethic?

The main reason Pacifism is so dysfunctional is because it opposes the core of the game loop. While Stellaris is not as much a map painter as EU4 or HoI4, in many ways it still follows the 4X war-driven formula. Rapid wide expansion is what the game expects a player to do, and war is the most efficient tool to achieve that goal. On top of that, warfare is often considered the most fun and rewarding part of gameplay, so the game naturally tilts in that direction.

In that sense Pacifism as an ethic is pretty much a refusal to play the game as intended. This naturally leads to a lot of problems for anyone sticking with Pacifism throughout a game. Both its mechanics and roleplay experience are based on negative (non-expansion, non-violence, non-identity), so it leads mostly to negative results.

If Stellaris was more like Vic3, Pacifism could find a refuge in the economy and social aspects of the game, but sadly that’s not the case. Stellaris doesn’t have a deep internal political system or a cultural system for Pacifism to tap into. At the same time, what little there is in terms of politics and culture, is already exploited by seven other ethics. They influence the nature of economy, the social system, the cultural flavor. Pacifism has nothing to do but to say “well, we are kind of stable, though”.

Part 3: Solutions

The problems with the current version of Pacifism are clear, but it’s not clear what should be done about it. Hopefully in this thread we can develop some ideas. All of the following are my personal suggestions:

The starting point for improving Pacifism is to give it a clear identity. Currently it is the negative identity, the absence of Militarism and the absence of meaningful gameplay. Instead, it should have positive and proactive identity.

The idea I have is the ethic of “building up”.

Pacifists should be the people who use their hard work and ingenuity to construct something from nothing. They turn barren rocks into thriving economies, they turn wastelands into blooming ecosystems, they develop institutions, megacities, megastructures. While Militarists take something by force, Pacifists are the ones building things that may be taken. This ethic of development gives them a natural respect for life and a natural proclivity for a softer approach.

This means Pacifists would have more to do aside from being non-Militarists. Instead, Pacifists would strive to build a Galaxy with more places to live, better places to live, healthy ecosystems, abundant resources and robust economies. At the same time, they would try to avoid warfare if possible. In my opinion, this change makes Pacifism more interesting, more in-tune with existing Stellaris game loop and more cohesive with other six ethics.

The next point is to translate the idea into mechanics. That’s a harder thing, but anyway:

1. If Stellaris gets better internal politics with more focus on stability, then Pacifists should keep that bonus. While Militarists may conquer a bunch of planets, they should have a hard time keeping those planets in line. Separatism, crime and inefficiency should be things to worry about. Pacifists would develop more stable and economically efficient societies, deal with less problems and get more resources, including alloys to build defense fleets.

2. If Stellaris gets cultural mechanics, Pacifists should also be the prime beneficiary. Pacifists should have an option to use their vast resources as the “soft power” abroad. Maybe this should be a new way of using diplomacy and espionage, available to everyone, but Pacifists would be better at it. Like slowly influencing the Militarist neighbor to get more and more tame, forcing an ethic switch and forming a Federation.

3. Add more Pacifist flavor to existing mechanics. Let Pacifists pacify and benefit from all space fauna. Give them an option to peacefully resolve conflicts with non-standard entities like leviathans and the like.

4. The key problem for Pacifism in terms of gameplay is limited expansion. While Militarists can claw their way out of a tough spot, Pacifists sometimes just can’t do that. Fanatical Pacifists are in a really tough spot if there are no friendly neighbors around. So, let Pacifists have a chance to prospect, terraform and settle some uninhabitable planets early in the game. Those planets would function like habitats, small and unassuming, but would provide the extra resources required for growing in a tight space and remaining competitive against Militarist expansion. Balancing that would be quite hard, though. The immediate problem is someone settling a bunch of planets and then ethic changing to Militarism, for example. Yet, I think this idea may be investigated.

5. Add Pacifist-specific civics. Currently there are only two Pacifist civics (Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection) while there are eight Militarist ones. Those new Pacifist civics may be related to the “building up” idea: resource extraction, terraforming, space engineering, maybe additional districts and better production methods. Also there may be civics related to the “soft power” allowing benefits for swaying ethics of other nations.

Hopefully that was a good read. I am interested in what you think!
 
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This is a pretty long read, almost an article. I explain how Stellaris version of Pacifism doesn’t work, why it is like that and what can be done about it. For your convenience, I broke it in several parts.

Part 1: What's wrong with Pacifism?

Of the eight ethics in Stellaris, Pacifism is by far the least functional. This is true both for mechanics of the game and roleplay experience.

In terms of mechanics, other seven ethics are more beneficial. Some are slightly better, some are worse, but, overall, each ethic offers some advantage. Xenophobia has early rush benefits. Xenophilia focuses on diplomacy. Materialism benefits tech rush. Spiritualism helps with unity production. Authoritarianism gets more base resources. Egalitarianism has stronger advanced economy. Militarism offers advantages in war. Each ethic offers something tangible and forms a distinctive playstyle.

Then there is Pacifism, a laughing stock of the eight. Extra stability is nice to have, but hardly the game changer as the stability is rarely a problem. If pressed you can raise it anyway with the abundant sources of extra happiness. -15% and -30% malus from the population size is a better thing to have, but the benefits are not that impressive. The benefits only kick in once you pass the administrative cap and the efficiency of the bonus depends on the border situation. If you are small and have a smaller population, you don’t get as much as you would get if you were large.

Of course, the crippling disadvantage of Pacifism is inability to wage war and expand as quickly as anyone else. Regular Pacifists can conquer in a masochistic busy-work cycle of liberation, vassalization and integration. Fanatic Pacifists can’t do even that. You either have to look for diplomatic solutions that may not be available in certain Galaxies, or you need to change ethics ASAP. Sure, some players may say that ethic change is a natural way to deal with this situation. Yet, when it comes to switching ethics, Pacifism seems to be the one changed the most. How many times have you switched from Militarism?

This is an additional point to consider. Counterpart ethics like Authoritarianism and Egalitarianism are more or less balanced against each other. It is not a perfect balance in each case, but it works more or less. As for Militarism and Pacifism, there is double imbalance in Militarism’s favor. Militarists not only can wage war while Pacifists can’t, but Militarists are also much better at war. They enjoy benefits of fire rate, naval capacity and so on. Pacifists, on the other hand, experience high war exhaustion. It is a logical outcome, of course, but since Pacifism has zero counterplay it may as well be removed from the game.

As for roleplay experience, Pacifism doesn’t do much better. Other ethics have clear identities and it is clear what they are about. There are special events, buildings, flavor text and many other little details giving an impression of playing particular ethic. By mid-game you can usually see what you are playing: Xenophobes have no alien specialists and rulers, Authoritarians have vast slaver networks, Materialists have lots of droids and so on. Pacifists have nothing. They are aggressively (ha-ha) average in how they feel. The only unique and fun mechanic they have is pacification of some space fauna, not even all of it.

Ethic description and government type indicate some sort of “Moral” like “Moral Democracy”, but there is no sense of superior morality to Pacifists. They may be generally non-violent, but it doesn’t feel like Pacifists do anything for moral reasons. If anything, they just come off as lazy hypocritical cowards, especially if they are on the slaving/purging side. Then there is the “Prosperity” angle in faction name, even though the economy or living standards advantages of the Pacifism are minor at best. Meaning there is no real identity to Stellaris Pacifism because it is too vague to describe.

A small, but telling example of how Pacifism is broken: when Paradox wanted to give some small flavor benefits to culture workers based on ethics, they had no problem choosing benefits for seven ethics and the problematic one was Pacifism. At first they wanted to give it the crime reduction and later changed it to small amount of trade value. Both choices are generic and not particularly valuable, just like Pacifism itself.

So, in conclusion, Pacifism is just a chewing toy among the ethics. Its mechanical benefits are either worthless or contextual. Its mechanical disadvantages are crippling. Its roleplay identity is both bland and vague. It doesn’t offer much to play with.

Part 2: Why current Pacifism doesn't work as an ethic?

The main reason Pacifism is so dysfunctional is because it opposes the core of the game loop. While Stellaris is not as much a map painter as EU4 or HoI4, in many ways it still follows the 4X war-driven formula. Rapid wide expansion is what the game expects a player to do, and war is the most efficient tool to achieve that goal. On top of that, warfare is often considered the most fun and rewarding part of gameplay, so the game naturally tilts in that direction.

In that sense Pacifism as an ethic is pretty much a refusal to play the game as intended. This naturally leads to a lot of problems for anyone sticking with Pacifism throughout a game. Both its mechanics and roleplay experience are based on negative (non-expansion, non-violence, non-identity), so it leads mostly to negative results.

If Stellaris was more like Vic3, Pacifism could find a refuge in the economy and social aspects of the game, but sadly that’s not the case. Stellaris doesn’t have a deep internal political system or a cultural system for Pacifism to tap into. At the same time, what little there is in terms of politics and culture, is already exploited by seven other ethics. They influence the nature of economy, the social system, the cultural flavor. Pacifism has nothing to do but to say “well, we are kind of stable, though”.

Part 3: Solutions

The problems with the current version of Pacifism are clear, but it’s not clear what should be done about it. Hopefully in this thread we can develop some ideas. All of the following are my personal suggestions:

The starting point for improving Pacifism is to give it a clear identity. Currently it is the negative identity, the absence of Militarism and the absence of meaningful gameplay. Instead, it should have positive and proactive identity.

The idea I have is the ethic of “building up”.

Pacifists should be the people who use their hard work and ingenuity to construct something from nothing. They turn barren rocks into thriving economies, they turn wastelands into blooming ecosystems, they develop institutions, megacities, megastructures. While Militarists take something by force, Pacifists are the ones building things that may be taken. This ethic of development gives them a natural respect for life and a natural proclivity for a softer approach.

This means Pacifists would have more to do aside from being non-Militarists. Instead, Pacifists would strive to build a Galaxy with more places to live, better places to live, healthy ecosystems, abundant resources and robust economies. At the same time, they would try to avoid warfare if possible. In my opinion, this change makes Pacifism more interesting, more in-tune with existing Stellaris game loop and more cohesive with other six ethics.

The next point is to translate the idea into mechanics. That’s a harder thing, but anyway:

1. If Stellaris gets better internal politics with more focus on stability, then Pacifists should keep that bonus. While Militarists may conquer a bunch of planets, they should have a hard time keeping those planets in line. Separatism, crime and inefficiency should be things to worry about. Pacifists would develop more stable and economically efficient societies, deal with less problems and get more resources, including alloys to build defense fleets.

2. If Stellaris gets cultural mechanics, Pacifists should also be the prime beneficiary. Pacifists should have an option to use their vast resources as the “soft power” abroad. Maybe this should be a new way of using diplomacy and espionage, available to everyone, but Pacifists would be better at it. Like slowly influencing the Militarist neighbor to get more and more tame, forcing an ethic switch and forming a Federation.

3. Add more Pacifist flavor to existing mechanics. Let Pacifists pacify and benefit from all space fauna. Give them an option to peacefully resolve conflicts with non-standard entities like leviathans and the like.

4. The key problem for Pacifism in terms of gameplay is limited expansion. While Militarists can claw their way out of a tough spot, Pacifists sometimes just can’t do that. Fanatical Pacifists are in a really tough spot if there are no friendly neighbors around. So, let Pacifists a chance to prospect, terraform and settle some uninhabitable planets early in the game. Those planets would function like habitats, small and unassuming, but would provide the extra resources required for growing in a tight space and remaining competitive against Militarist expansion. Balancing that would be quite hard, though. The immediate problem is someone settling a bunch of planets and then ethic changing to Militarism, for example. Yet, I think this idea may be investigated.

5. Add Pacifist-specific civics. Currently there are only two Pacifist civics (Agrarian Idyll and Inward Perfection) while there are eight Militarist ones. Those Pacifist civics may be related to the “building up” idea: resource extraction, terraforming, space engineering, maybe additional districts and better production methods. Also there may be civics related to the “soft power” allowing benefits for swaying ethics of other nations.

Hopefully that was a good read. I am interested in what you think!

Your solution fails to solve the problem

Conquest doesn't benefit you by giving you conquered colonies it benefits you by giving you conquered pops, because growing pops isn't efficient and thanks to scaling this becomes far worse over time.

Your solution doesn't fix this problem.

What does fix the problem a faster computer and turning off pop scaling.

Note your problem is not exclusive to pacifist. Determined exterminators suck for the same reason. They can't aquire enough pops
 
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kwheeler

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I'm still thinking through your points here.

For me, the question comes down to, "How can Pacifists conquer others without conquering them?"

Your solution seems to me to double-down on Pacifist production by making them extremely good at extracting resources from marginal areas. That may be one way to go about it, but it does overlap on the Venn diagrams with "survivor"-type background that can eke out existence from hellish worlds and Megacorps which are also all about maximizing resources in the form of energy credits, so it might not make them as unique as one might like.

I wonder if another possible route to take--either separately or in conjunction with the ideas above--would be that Pacifists become especially sympathetic and attract allies much more rapidly than the other factions. (This also has some potential redundancies and overlap with Xenophilic factions though with the theme of federations and alliances). Perhaps the way to make Pacifists conquer the galaxy is a campaign style that focuses heavily on winning hearts and minds, so that any time a hostile neighbor starts trying to bully a Pacifist faction, the Pacifist faction becomes especially attractive to neighboring empires as an ally or Federation member? Maybe for each year an aggressor has declared war on a Pacifist, the Pacifist has a percent chance of sympathetic neighbors gifting the Pacifist with resources, ships, and armaments even if the neighbor isn't directly involve din the conflict?

Or just throwing out random ideas here--what if Pacifist factions were given unique diplomatic access options with Fallen Empires? I'm not sure exactly what form it would take, but it would be a way to distinguish them.

Finally, it's currently possible for Pacifists to learn to co-exist with space monsters like Crystals and Amoebas if they research certain techs. Perhaps a better way to make Pacifists feel unique is if they start the game with that ability to co-exist right off the bat--and then get an optional tech they alone can research that makes it possible for them to directly recruit space monsters as their defense if they move a science ship with a special module into the same system? They are living in harmony with the wildlife of the Great Void, and thus they can call those beasts to their side for defense or to ward away intruders from unsettled systems....

Just spitballing random thoughts here.
 
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Verx90

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tbh i would change militarism and pacifistm into "offensive" and "defensive" ethos, more appropiately named

the problem is that pacifism is not the opposite of militarism as meaning.


so the opposite of militarist should be Antimilitarism . It is particolary sad because militarism itself in our history was always justified with the concept of " peace for my ppls"
 
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the problem is that pacifism is not the opposite of militarism as meaning.


so the opposite of militarist should be Antimilitarism . It is particolary sad because militarism itself in our history was always justified with the concept of " peace for my ppls"
Exactly,

And tying an ethos being good at war, and the other being bad at war, on a game that war is an integral part is a bad gameplay decision.

Thats why i prefer tying an ethos into "good at being aggresive (offensive wars, making claims)" and another etho at "good at defensive (defensive wars, war exhaustion, natural defensiveness"
 
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Marmelado

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Conquest doesn't benefit you by giving you conquered colonies it benefits you by giving you conquered pops, because growing pops isn't efficient and thanks to scaling this becomes far worse over time.

Your solution doesn't fix this problem.
That's why the integral part of the suggestion is to make conquests more difficult to exploit. On its own, buffing Pacifists up with additional colonies is not going to balance things out. That said, in the end conquest may still be more beneficial because of the snowball effect, although that depends on the exact numbers. I think nerfing conquest into the ground would be a bad gameplay move.

So, if the end goal is to perfectly balance Pacifism against Militarism, it would be very hard to pull off. On the other hand, if the goal is to make Pacifism less depressing to play, the changes are very much possible.
 
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Ryika

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Dismissing the 10 Stability is quite baffling to me. That's +6% Resource production and Trade Value across the board, from all Strata, which is easily better than Authoritarian's 10% Worker Resources for example. Comes with the downside of being capped at 100, but that's not really a problem if you're not playing a build with other sources of extra stability built in. -30% Sprawl from Pops is also easily one of the best-scaling - probably THE best scaling - effects of all Ethics.

There are a lot of things wrong with Pacifism as an Ethic, but their stat boosts are easily some of the strongest ones when looked at by themselves. They're just not nearly strong enough to make up for the limitations that are built into the Civic.
 
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pacifists should have zero war exhaustion when attacked. they know they are just and will fight to the death to defend their homes, but will never enthusiastically go to war as the aggressors (unless liberation wars)

pacifists should gain stacking pop growth bonuses for every year they are at peace (defensive wars and crises should not count against this). maybe a good way to do this is to tie the effect to peace festivals, every consecutive year of peace festivals increasing the bonus, but peace festivals ending the moment you declare war

pacifists should be allowed to gain the ascensionists civic, which it never made sense to restrict to spiritualists in the first place. pacifists, not spiritualists, are the ones who most need to stack buffs on a few worlds. i'm not suggesting spiritualists lose it, only that pacifism should also have access to it.
 
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Kitschy

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Good read.
Wouldn't making Pacifists more "mercantile" (thriving economies etc.) take away from Xenophile trade value bonus?

Suggestion 3 is really great one imo, on a sidenote and off topic when it comes to leviathans let Spiritualist worship them as gods or demigods and I guess protect them or crusade for them.
 

Pancakelord

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Really Pacifists lack a place, because the stuff you'd expect them to do, is done/better by other ethics, or civics synergising better with other ethics:
  • Building up your worlds better/faster than others? - go play Spiritualists + unity + planetary ascensionism.
  • Trading with people, and making bank off galactic events - nope, Xenophiles got there first. Also mercenaries and megacorps (which are kings of trade..) go hand in hand with militarism/xenophile as of overlord imo.
That said, I'll rattle off a few ideas ive had over the years
  • Architects of the void - Megastructure synergies
    • It is said that peace is a dividend of its own; perhaps
      • pacifists could make for good megastructure builders - spamming O-rings and habs in your limited/non-expandable space would certainly synergise well.
      • some sort of benefits boosting megastructure constructability (cheaper/faster (increased parallel MS constructions would be cool)) or output -
      • take a page out of bulwarks and add some sort of mechanism that lets pacifists get megastructure techs/APs sooner (e.g. needing fewer traditions finished to take MS related perks).
      • Materialism (for the tech research) and spiritualism (for the unity to get certain APs) also tend to get you to megastructures pretty quick - in their own ways.
  • Traders of the void - this can come in upto 3 different forms: Trade & CG & immigration synergies.
    • Trade -- The pacifist pop faction is fairly often named the "Prosperity" faction - and, whilst the Xenophile faction (bafflingly, to me) gets +Trade value modifiers, I have always felt like that is a better fit on the pacifist ethos (if we cant kill them lets try and trade with them) This does rub up against the one interesting pacifist civic (isolationists) - but its not like isolated nations in history havent still conducted trade, in some form or another, anyway.

    • CGs -- Guns vs Butter - this one would require CGs to be a bit more relevant (i.e. market pricing and economic overhauls) but if pacifists are to be the opposite to Militarists, which rely on Alloys, then pacifists could synergise with Consumer Goods - though how exactly this makes the ethos more relevant, without serious economic tuning, is harder to explain.

    • Immigration -- Soft power isnt real, soft power cant hurt you (AKA space Kpop)- Militarists gain pops through hard power (war...). But Pacifists, being diametrically opposed (and incapable of conquest), should be able to gain pops better than anyone else via soft power. There are literally an unlimited number of ways this could be implemented, and balanced. But imo it all revolves around the (frankly forgotten) POP GROWTH VIA IMMIGRATION statistic.
      • Immigration is a bit of a joke right now. It caps out pretty low. and is easily forgotten about by some other base pop growth modifiers - or just straight up pop assembly in the midgame (ignoring things like slave purchasing and raiding or direct conquest).
      • Pacifists could be given the keys to unlock the potential of passive pop growth via immigration. For example, you get a free one-way immigration pact with every single empire you have communications with, with the pop income flow being modified by that empire's opinion of you. this could become broken pretty quickly. Perhaps a simpler approach is to make the immigration growth cap dynamic, and have it modified by a job (e.g. "immigration officers" - spawning on transit hub buildings in pacifist empires - or even just clerks in pacifist empires) that multiplies the net immigration to the planet by some factor.
      • 1675119365643.png
      • I generally think Xenophile should be given this focus on growth-through-immigration, and Pacifists should get trade modifiers, though.
  • Spies of the void - espionage and strongholds.
    • Militarists have their war machines, and their ability to expand. Pacifists need to be able to defend, cripple, weaken, slow and sew discord whilst holding out.
    • This can come in the form of increased starbase stat modifiers (maybe even a "mega" starbase that only pacifists can build - an upgrade above the usual max tier one -- though with orbital rings a thing now, its hard to really fortify systems much more without getting in to game-breaking territory).
    • And (implies an espionage rework so its not terrible) bonuses to espionage. e.g. Pacifists can undertake +1 or +2 operations simultaneously on an enemy spy network. or they can speed up or skip fail rolls on operations - this all implies espionage is worth engaging with, which is a separate topic.
  • Pacifism - the organic paradise (+pop growth, +bio pop assembly, +Terraforming /... gaia world bonuses?)
    • Imagine, just as spiritualism is to psionics (and materialism to AIs/cyborgs), so too could pacifism be to genetic engineering.
    • This would need to be very carefully written, as it could tread on spiritualism's ideas of metaphysical one-ness. But Pacifism could be an allegory for protecting nature, enhancing the [Species.GetName]'s body and capacity to thrive - as well as the organic worlds it finds itself on.
    • This moves pacifism away from "pure" pacifism, more towards idk, Naturalism, or Biological primacy - as I said, it risks stepping on spiritualist writing (which also touches on my initial points, about xenophilia & spiritualism half-carrying pacifist-adjacent ideas).
  • Break the ethos wheel - A controversial one as it doesn't strictly solve the problem at hand (that pacifism sucks).
    • The ethics wheel just doesnt make a huge amount of sense. Xenophobia and Xenophilia really seem like the only two truly diametric ethics. You can rationalise away societies that are spiritualist & materialist (hell thats literally gospel of the masses, at face value - mechanicus from 40k based on the mechanics of the two ethics, instead), as well as other conflicting ethic combos (i've played militarist games where I do nothing all game, playing like a pacifist, too, as there are no "military angry you not killing people" mechanics - like a watered down version of ES's Cravers).
    • Pacifism's problem comes from 2 directions.
      • 1 it sucks if you do a 1:1 comparison to militarism, and always will ("what do you prefer, to sing space kumbayah or to try out this shiny new giant death laser?") and
      • 2 its intrinsically shite. for the various reasons mentioned in this thread, and in other posts.
        • whilst we can make suggestions, so long as the mutually exclusive ethic wheel exists, any suggestion has to be able to match or trump the power of militarism in a 4x game.
        • By breaking the ethic wheel - meaning they're presented in a 3x3 grid, and any ethic set can be combined [possibly excluding xenophile/xenophobe - and gestalt, obviously] you no longer have to make Pacifism BOTH "good" and "on-par with militarism" (i.e. good on its own, and good in the dimension of warfare), as it currently has to, when its competing for 1-2/3 of a player's ethic slots. You also open up the possibility to add other ethics with more niche effects, later on...
 
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Sanvone

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Given that Pacifism already has better weights to drawing Megastructures techs, maybe give +1 limit per step (+2 at Fanatic Pacifist) to things like Dyson Sphere, Matter Decompressor etc? Also giving them special lower requirement like needing only Habitat tech for Mega Engineering and maybe faster working Construction ships so Pacifist can replace missed population through Megastructures. So they would be more of "Civilization Builders" who focus on civilian aspects more than military.

I also like stacking pop outputs as long as you don't initiate war.
 
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DrFranknfurter

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Fanatic pacifist can feels like playing on hard-mode because of how integral expansion by war is to the game. Though I get around the defensive wars only by tempting empires to attack me and whipping them when they fight me, or by diplomatic vassals... but vassals feel like an exploit.

I'd like the default pacifist to be better, but I could also imagine a few different ways to approach pacifists, at least in the form of civics:

Peacekeepers

Instead of peace these lean more into a hatred of offensive wars, aggression empires and conquest. The civic could open up more ways to intervene in ongoing wars to protect the weak, cage the dangerous (forcibly turning hostile planets into Penal Colonies, for the protection of the galactic community) and to generally act as a peacekeeping force liberating slaves, removing claims from other empires, pacifying planets and enforcing "Status quo ante bellum" returning empires to the situation they were in before their war started, or even reviving extinct empires by freeing captured capitals.

All of which could work like humiliation wars and give influence to the pacifists (that can be used for habitats and pop growth) as well combining with the politics tradition tree to give stacking diplomatic weight for the next successful resolution passed after each successful peacekeeping action (to push through protective resolutions and becoming custodian to protect the entire galaxy).

So I think I'd like a pacifist playstyle that adds new wargoals, cheaper guaranteed independence/defensive pacts, bonuses while in defensive combat, the ability to intervene in wars on the side of the defender, diplomatic actions to demand relinquishing claims and some other things that feel like they fit with someone protecting the weak instead of only being about ignoring war and diplomacy. Perhaps even with ways to non-lethally attack and disable threats including mining drones (like the cultist ship that you have to board in the event chain). Rather than just ignoring those threats.

Any of the above could also apply to generic pacifists to make them more interesting as well.

And for the pacifist equivalent of a scary total war empire or crisis aspirant:

Rewilders / Befrienders
This empire wants to return the galaxy to the natural state of peace and prosperity, or just wants to make friends with all the angry monsters. After pacifying neutrals they can churn out roaming neutral fleets, or encourage guardians to move around with a series of repeatable actions like feeding alloys to Void Clouds, minerals to mining drones, food to organics etc. These would be neutral to allied pacifists, but aggressive to everyone else.

I want to be a pacifist version of the grey tempest - perhaps even quite literally befriending the grey tempest with a very expensive and difficult project, like establishing and protecting a lure while you perform an action to infiltrate and edit the tempest's programming, then feed the modified tempest until it cleanses the galaxy.
 
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Incompetent

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Your solution fails to solve the problem

Conquest doesn't benefit you by giving you conquered colonies it benefits you by giving you conquered pops, because growing pops isn't efficient and thanks to scaling this becomes far worse over time.

Your solution doesn't fix this problem.

What does fix the problem a faster computer and turning off pop scaling.

Note your problem is not exclusive to pacifist. Determined exterminators suck for the same reason. They can't aquire enough pops

This is the basic issue, although I'd disagree a bit on Determined Exterminators: they don't totally suck, they just have no long term. You need to kill everyone quickly, before they outbreed you. That's actually a fun challenge and fits with their narrative perfectly, especially now that you can take Become the Crisis and win the game without the tedium of conquering every single system.

Pacifism on the other hand cannot and doesn't want to rush the galaxy, it's supposed to be the patient ethic, which makes it especially bad that you don't really get a long-term payoff, you just end up stagnating due to lack of pops. To be more precise, my experience has been that non-Fanatic Pacifism is an interesting restriction that you can work around (liberation wars if you want to be more diplomatic, stealing pops if you're isolationist), although it's still true that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits of the Pacifist ethic and any Pacifist civics (and you kind of have to suppress your own Pacifist/Isolationist faction to have a happy populace, which is not ideal). Fanatic Pacifism on the other hand is just crippling. I think the non-fanatic form is rescuable with some generic 'going tall' buffs and civics to compensate for your empire's limitations, as others have suggested, but Fanatic Pacifism clashes with the meta at a fundamental level.

To make Fanatic Pacifism compatible with the meta, you'd need an alternative to Become the Crisis that leads to winning the game, but is not aggressive and something you can do within a limited amount of territory, and which Pacifists are especially good at. I would say something like science victory in the Civ games, but science rushing is already too heavily rewarded in Stellaris. Maybe something megastructure/automation-based? Going a lot further with a Megastructure-based economy potentially gets around the problem of lack of pops, but you have to gate it somehow to stop it being OP for those who acquire lots of pops *and* build all the megastructures. So some kind of utopian grand project that takes an AP to start, and is at the very least mutually exclusive with Become the Crisis.

Another thing I'd say, and not just for Pacifists, is that "voluntary" migration of pops should be a much bigger part of the game. The game has pop scaling because of a galaxy-level issue of too many pops stalling the game; but there's no reason you can't have mechanisms for siphoning pops off other empires. For non-Pacifist Authoritarians and Xenophobes, i.e. slavery-compatible empires, that means going and seizing them by force. For less brutal empires, there should be a viable alternative pathway of persuading pops to come to you, like there is in the Victoria games. If migration becomes a large part of the game's population dynamics, then things like constant warfare can be "push" factors, while high living standards and rights can be "pull" factors.
 
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Strangedane

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Fanatic pacifists should have an "enough" option.

Simply put, let fanatic pacifists set their wargoal to total war, given the right circumstances.
 
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Fanatic pacifists should have an "enough" option.

Simply put, let fanatic pacifists set their wargoal to total war, given the right circumstances.

Please no, we don't need nuclear Gandhi in Stellaris. I feel like this is the thing that distinguishes Pacifists from Fanatic Pacifists: the Pacifists will declare war in limited circumstances to promote peace in the long run (liberation wars to impose Pacifist ideology on others, for example), whereas Fanatic Pacifists don't think there can ever be a just war. They could get dragged into an existential war, such as against the Crisis, but they won't start it. The circumstances under which erstwhile Fanatic Pacifists become aggressors are the circumstances under which their population's ethics change so much that the empire shifts out of Pacifism.

I'm ok with Fanatic Pacifists having some sort of megaproject that ends the game, effectively daring other empires to attack them in order to stop it (at least in PvP, where players are aware enough of the threat of "science victory", "wonder victory" and so on). It's just that the project shouldn't explicitly lead to killing others or to some sort of military-based dominance.
 
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Cry_Havok

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The one issue I think a lot of these proposals run into is they really don't want to be Xenophobic. Which, is fine, but something to consider. Pacifics empires gaining pops from the outside seems like a great idea, but it runs into the fundamental issue of you would have to let them in, which would either mean disabling the ethic for xenophobe, or Inward Perfection would need some sort of gadget to bypass the restriction (maybe Isolationists get a special subject type that is locked to fanatic pacifist to serve as a buffer and collection point for refugees)

An option that comes to mind is Pacifists passively gaining war refugees. Any nation at war would start having migration pressure applies internally, and any planet being bombarded could start creating refugees, which would then prefer to go to empires not at war, and beyond that pacifists. To offset this Militarists might have reduced war refugees .

As an asside: for game balance and play reasons F-pacifists should be allowed the End Threat wargoal, but no other war option.
 
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A2ch0n

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While i like the idea of changing the pacifist ethic, i would rather see changes to a more pacifist way of playstyle itself. That can include other ethics too.

What i would like to see is the ability to keep peace for your empire (and your allies) with diplomacy itself. Things like prevent an empire from declaring war on you by removing CB's or using your diplo weight to directly prevent an attack.

With the launch of Federations i thought we would get such an option, depending on your diplomatic standing compared to another empire, where each level of diplo relation starting from neutral up to excellent remove certain types of CB's, only leaving total war CB's untouched.

If this would be brought as a mechanic it would allow the real option to play parcifistic/diplomatic.

So lets say:

Terrible: No CB's removed
Tense: Remove Humiliate and Animosity CB
Neutral: Remove Conquer Claim and Expropriation CB
Positive: Remove Hostile Takeover, Ideology and Despoilation
Excellent: All CB's (including galatron) except Total War CB's

So the Pacifist ethic itself could ease this by one level, making it much harder to start a war against a parcifist.

I for myself would love such an option.
 
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Incompetent

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The one issue I think a lot of these proposals run into is they really don't want to be Xenophobic. Which, is fine, but something to consider. Pacifics empires gaining pops from the outside seems like a great idea, but it runs into the fundamental issue of you would have to let them in, which would either mean disabling the ethic for xenophobe, or Inward Perfection would need some sort of gadget to bypass the restriction (maybe Isolationists get a special subject type that is locked to fanatic pacifist to serve as a buffer and collection point for refugees)

Technically, Xenophobe ethics are pretty relaxed, anything up to Residence for xenos is allowed, although indeed it's not really in the spirit of the ethic.

For more thematic options, Xenophobes can take in xenos as slaves, although that raises the question of why anyone would give you slaves if you're not prepared to seize them by force. (Inward Perfection + Nihilistic Acquisition is mechanically viable, but your governing factions absolutely hate it, and it feels a bit off for a nominally "pacifist" empire.) You can also be a Xenophobe Necrophage, or the high-tech version, Xenophobe Synth-Ascended, meaning you plan to convert the incoming pops to your primary species, so taking in xenos is perfectly compatible with believing xenos are inferior.

More broadly though I agree, there should be some way of going truly isolationist, purely your own pops, that isn't completely self-defeating. To me, that means pursuing some internal project that doesn't require a lot of pops, but takes a lot of time to pay off.
 
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Ikael

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I don't know what is the right way to solve pacifism's many problems but I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of this topic.

Some musings regarding the problems of pacifism in Stellaris:

- The main, biggest problem of pacifism is that Stellaris economic system does not offer trade-offs between developing your planets VS building up your fleet. Planets can be easily maximized by expending basic resources (minerals into buildings & districts), whereas peaceful "wide" expansion ends very early (that is, the colonization phase). What's worse, achieving higher efficiency on a planet depends mainly on said planet's capital tier, and that is entirely dependent on your pop number, which in turn means that earlier acquired colonies are going to be more efficient as well, which in turn means that early war rushes are extremely rewarded. So in Stellaris, pop quantity does have a pop quality of its own, literally. No need to invest resources into it. You will always have not enough pops, rather than not enough infrastructure to support said pops.

- So long story short, you can't invest complex resources into pops (unless for some reason you want to roleplay suboptimal utopian abundance), you can't invest complex resources into developing your colonies (there is no need in most cases), and as the game progresses you will need fewer resources in order to colonize worlds peacefully (habitability techs, terraforming techs, etc). So where does an ethic devoted to investing in things other than fleet fit in?

- The only 3 ways that the game offers you to "build up" are 1) planet ascensions 2) Planetary rings (which albeit marvelous, are part of a DLC), and 3) habitats (beholden to another DLC), which are an extremely cost-inefficient way to expand peacefully. That leaves very, very few options for any kind of pacifist playstyle in the game, with megastructures being even more of a "roleplaying" choice designed to "win more" rather than offer some kind of viable "builder" playstyle.

- In order to make things even worse for pacifist playstyles, there is no "soft power" mechanics in Stellaris either. Espionage could very well be "a pacifist thing", using subterfuge instead of brute force in order to subjugate your enemies, but it is extremely underwhelming and weak. There are no cultural mechanics either, and there is no way to force your rivals to do your bidding or adopt your ways or make them peacefully join your empire, either.

- The bonuses to the pacifist ethic are kinda "meh". Stability is very powerful in the early game, but having a limited cap means that the pacifist advantage dilutes entirely as the game progresses, up to the point where it might not exist at all. Pacifism would be much better served with a straight job output bonus instead, IMHO. Pop reduction sprawl is indeed very nice to have and feels present during the entire game. It also fits with my "tall" vision of pacifism, but in the end, it is a passive bonus with little player interaction.

- The pacifist flavor is, indeed, missing. Two weak-ish civics, one edict, no unique living standards, nor unique buildings, nor unique designations nor unique pretty much anything, really (well, they do have a unique colossus, which always seemed amusing to me). And fauna pacification too, which is indeed cool, but extremely rare and weak in most cases.

- I personally always envisioned pacifists as the "tall builders" of Stellaris, as opposed to the militarist "wide destroyers", with xenophiles already filling the role of diplomats. Ideally, pacifism would be the best ethics for those players who like to do more with less (and I think that devs giving pacifists sprawl reduction bonuses points out towards that idea too), and for players that like to build planets into utopias way beyond the standard infrastructure, focusing in "butter, not guns". Think about small, highly prosperous nations like Switzerland, the Dutch Republic, or Singapore. Or even "not so small" nations focused on achieving "peace through prosperity and trade" like Germany (with the common factor between them of great infrastructure). But in the end, there are very few game systems for supporting such a gameplay style. Unless we get an economic rework, that's hardly going to change.
 
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