USSR got its coal and oil from the Caucauses and the Ukraine. Siberia did not have developed mines or oil fields. The Japanese would have to build those up by themselves.
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You won't get much oil, the large Siberian oil reserves were discovered post war, and what little you might get, you have to get to a refinery...
But, the Russians already had sources of oil. So oil in Siberia Siberia would've been more vital to the Japanese and they could've searched for oil and possibly found more. Same in the Middle East. Much of the resources there were not found until after the war. But, if the Axis needed oil, and so captured the Middle East, I think that they would search for oil. Same with Siberia.
Meiji-Tenno
Probably the only way Japan could occupy large swathes of Siberia is that in the 40's there was nothing there. Strategically for USSR Siberia was a side show at the end of a single rail line. If, for example, Pacific Russia had fallen I doubt if USSR would have bothered to take it back until Germany was beaten.
Japan certainly did not have the logistics to support a trans- siberian invasion of Western Russia (bridge on the river volga anyone?). So assuming they take it and hold the pacific coast, they'll have approx. 5 years before the Red Army takes it back
Japan certainly did not have the logistics to support a trans- siberian invasion of Western Russia (bridge on the river volga anyone?). So assuming they take it and hold the pacific coast, they'll have approx. 5 years before the Red Army takes it back
If a Japanese invasion of Siberia and Operation Barbarossa happen at once, both being done very strategically, and the Russians even making lots of mistakes, I think that Siberia could be captured, along with western Russia. Didn't the Red Army go to fight the Germans? The Russians would have a hard time, I believe, fighting a Japanese and a German invasion at the same time, from both sides of a continent. Especially since most of their troops fought the Germans. Now, the Kwantung Army invades Siberia. And I think that the Japanese could take inland Siberia. Perhaps not all of Siberia, but about the same amount of territory that was captured 20 years before.
It takes decades to survey, build and develop oil fields, even in peacetime ... the principal resource that Japan would have gained from conquering Siberia in the 1940s would have been timber, reindeer, and mud.
I thought that some oil was known about. Was there?
And I will conquer Siberia in 1930's then!
Meiji-Tenno
Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
I thought that some oil was known about. Was there?
There is a big, big difference between knowing vaguely about the presence of oil and (a) surveying it exactly, (b) building the pumping facilities to extract it, and (c) building the infrastructure to bring it to shipment. This kind of thing can't be done overnight, even in the best of circumstances and with the greatest of resources. Siberia is not exactly the kind of place you want to go starting a major construction project either, as generations of Russians have discovered to their chagrin.
Ok! Thanks. I am not expert on oil.. I will have to go study it.
Admiral Yamamoto studied oil in the United States and got a good grade. Many American oil industries actually tried to get him to work for them. Perhaps he will have some advice on the best place for oil for me..
It is probably Dutch East Indies. I want to see what I can do in Siberia in one game though.. I'd like to see what kind of progress I could do and what resources I can get extracted. Meiji-Tenno
The Russians, after having another 70 years still havent found a big enough and cheaply enough oil field to exploit...why would you, engaged in an occupation of/war of China and under the strains of a US embargo and the world wide depresion face better?
Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
I thought that some oil was known about. Was there?
And I will conquer Siberia in 1930's then!
Meiji-Tenno
http://www.maanystavat.fi/oileng/venaja.htm
http://www.friends-partners.org/oldfriends/siberia/br/sbr2_1.html
Hanny
Sorry - do you know how big Siberia is!
I've been to some of the oil fields in Siberia (check my profile ) on business. Most were developed post WW2 and there are no oil fields of consequence in Eastern Siberia that were in production around WW2 time.
The western sibserian oil fields were thousands of kilometres from the Japanese.
I've been to some of the oil fields in Siberia (check my profile
) on business. Most were developed post WW2 and there are no oil fields of consequence in Eastern Siberia that were in production around WW2 time.The western sibserian oil fields were thousands of kilometres from the Japanese.
In fact, China received more material help from the Russians than from everyone else put together until long after the Russo-Japanese treaty was signed. Planes, advisors, artillery and small arms; all went south, propping up Mao but also helping Chiang. With supreme irony, the Germans as well as the Americans were Nationalist China's major cheerleaders in the early thirties.
The Burma Road was important, but not critical, more a prestige thang than a lifeline.
The East Siberian protectorate lasted (IIRC) until 1925. It was superintended by an alliance that included many European powers and Japan. Japan was all for keeping it in being, but the Westerners persuaded them to let it collapse and the Russians moved in. It would be wrong to say that Japan ever 'controlled' it but it was certainly out of Moscow's sphere for almost a decade. One of the WiF expansions provided units for potential Jap protege governments in Vladivostok and Nanking to accompany the INA unit in the original gameset.
Even in November '41, with Russia in extremis, the SU sported a powerful Eastern garrison; the more I read about relative Japanese/Allied dispositions in India, Australia and Russia the more far-fetched even the best-trodden what-ifs seem. From what I've seen Japan could have managed Vladivostok, Calcutta or Darwin but almost certainly never Chita, Delhi or Brisbane.
Hmm, do you have any sources for this ? I highly doubt that the Russians outsupplied the Americans, especialy after the Soong clan estebalished such good connections with Washington.
It was the only way to supply Land Lease to the Nationalist government...
Originally posted by Meiji-Tenno
I thought that some oil was known about. Was there?
And I will conquer Siberia in 1930's then!
Meiji-Tenno
To put this to bed - I attach a reserve map of Russia from 1999. If you look at "Siberia" close to Manchuria it has no commercial devlopments today.
Russian oil reserve map
The sad thing about this is that South Sakhalin Island - which the Japanese owned until Russia overran it in 1945 - is the centre of the only real commercial billion barrel oil field in Far Eastern Russia (although Kamchatka peninsuls may well turn out to be oil rich too). So if the Japanese had concentrated on developing oil exploration and drilling technology..........
Thank you very much!
I guess I will have to spend that money I was going to use on supplying the troops in Siberia will go towards oil drilling! Southern Sakhalin was won in the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905). The Japanese fought the Russians in Korea and Manchuria and in naval battles throughout the Sea of Japan and that area. In the end, Theodore Roosevelt (The president of the United States at the time), on the suggestion of the Japanese, made the famous Treaty of Portsmouth which was signed by Japanese and Russian officials on September 5,1905. The treaty gave Japan the southern half of Sakhalin, the bases of Lushun and Dalian, access to conquer Korea without any foreign intervention, and the Russians had to withdraw their troops from Manchuria (But they could keep the Chinese Eastern Railway) and Korea.
Meiji-Tenno
re
My question is : Why?
Why invade Siberia? What huge quantities of oil would you gain that would easily cover the quantities you expended chasing away the russians throughout the endless taiga and also provide enough reserves for the coming war in the Pacific?
The only good reason to attack USSR would be if the USSR would be hanging from a thinning thread in winter 1941 and all it would take would be the lack of Lend-Lease to cover the needs of the front until the mammoth war industry was being relocated behind the Urals. That's all: take Vladivostok, Habarovsk, the Sahalin Island and probably go as far as Cita or Ulan-Ude in outer Mongolia. If the USSR had even the slimmest chances to survive without Lend-Lease I would rather concentrate on strenghtening my armed forces and planning the coming campaign.
The economic map from 1999 isn't relevant given the situation of the Russian economy and the rampant corruption. There is barely money to maintain and guard the old ICBM silos (when not on duty some soldiers have a second job or even beg, hope bin Laden doesn't hear this), let alone develop economy in the Far East, many facilities of all kinds are left to decay. A better map would have been an economic one from the 70s or early
My question is : Why?
Why invade Siberia? What huge quantities of oil would you gain that would easily cover the quantities you expended chasing away the russians throughout the endless taiga and also provide enough reserves for the coming war in the Pacific?
The only good reason to attack USSR would be if the USSR would be hanging from a thinning thread in winter 1941 and all it would take would be the lack of Lend-Lease to cover the needs of the front until the mammoth war industry was being relocated behind the Urals. That's all: take Vladivostok, Habarovsk, the Sahalin Island and probably go as far as Cita or Ulan-Ude in outer Mongolia. If the USSR had even the slimmest chances to survive without Lend-Lease I would rather concentrate on strenghtening my armed forces and planning the coming campaign.
The economic map from 1999 isn't relevant given the situation of the Russian economy and the rampant corruption. There is barely money to maintain and guard the old ICBM silos (when not on duty some soldiers have a second job or even beg, hope bin Laden doesn't hear this), let alone develop economy in the Far East, many facilities of all kinds are left to decay. A better map would have been an economic one from the 70s or early
I only posted the map because Mejii was banging on about the oil reserves in Siberia. My point was that there was no oil development there now so how could he expect to benefit in the 1940's
And Soviet era maps of strategic resources are not exactly easy to find
And Soviet era maps of strategic resources are not exactly easy to find