• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Catman115

Second Lieutenant
21 Badges
Jul 12, 2012
163
80
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
So i recently came back to this game because most of the things i had problems with it on launch have been fixed. However, i am still finding myself utterly left out in the cold by just how LONG it can take for majors to eat each other. Considering the time period includes things like Caesar's conquest of Gaul, Alexander's conquest of Persia, the Wars of the Diadochi, the Punic Wars, Sulla eating almost all of Asia Minor in like 3 wars, the Conquest of Macedonia, all of the various Roman Civil Wars (which spanned the entirety of the Mediterranean), the fact that it takes me like 10 wars as Rome to eat Carthage is ridiculous. Heck the fact that the Phygrian kingdom died within like 20 years of the game start IRL and yet it commonly sticks around for the whole game in I:R is also ridiculous. This was the period when the Diadochi were destroying each other/themselves at an alarming rate.

So what im suggesting is an overhaul of how wars work on the macro scale. IE wars arent just you attack someone and they call in all of their allies and you yours. There should be "tiers" of wars. Lemme put out a list as an example:

Tier 0: Border Skirmish/Border Raid (All wars start out this way) (Available to every nation rank)
-Only allows for minor conquests, drastically increases warscore costs of conquests compared to current game.
-Nations cannot call in allies (Except Defensive Leagues)
-No War Strain

<Escalation>

Tier 1: Minor War/Tribal Subjugation (Available to every nation rank)
-Allows for smaller conquests, moderately increases warscore costs of conquests compared to current game.
-Alliances are allowed to be called in.
-War Strain for City-State Rank (This can take the form of negative modifiers if the war goes on for too long)
-Minor Emergency War Powers can be used (these can be things like taxes and such)

<Escalation>

Tier 2: Moderate War/Tribal Unification (Available to nations of rank Local Power and higher)
-Allows for moderate conquests, slight increase in warscore costs of conquests compared to current game.
-Alliances are allowed to be called in.
-War Strain for Local Power Rank (This can take the form of negative modifiers if the war goes on for too long)
-Unlocks more Emergency War Powers (Minor Conscription/Mild War Taxes for instance)
-Cannot be escalated on war-leading nations of City-State Rank or lower.

<Escalation>

Tier 3: Regional War/Tribal Conquest (Available to nations of rank Regional Power and higher)
-Allows for regional conquests, warscore costs of conquests inline with current game, warscore costs for releasing nations reduced compared to current game.
-Alliances are allowed to be called in.
-Most Emergency War Powers unlocked (Probably everything except Total Mobilization/Highest possible War Taxes)
-War Strain for Regional Power Rank (This can take the form of negative modifiers if the war goes on for too long)
-Cannot be escalated on war-leading nations of Local Power Rank or lower.
-Draws moderate attention from within diplomatic range Major Power Rank nations or higher. They may intervene in a non war way (IE subsidies or lending manpower)

<Escalation>

Tier 4: Major War/Tribal Great Conquest (Available to nations of rank Regional Power and higher)
-Allows for major regional conquests, warscore costs moderately reduced from current game, warscore costs for releasing nations drastically reduced from current game.
-Alliances are obligated to be called in or the alliance is broken (with a truce timer)
-All Emergency War Powers unlocked (Total mobilization and Highest possible war taxes)
-Massive War Strain for Regional Power Rank that begins immediately upon escalation (major negative modifiers that will break a nation if it lasts for too long)
-War Strain for Major Power Rank (This can take the form of negative modifiers if the war goes on for too long)
-Draws major attention from within Diplomatic Range Major Rank Nations or higher. They may declare for one side or the other.
-Cannot be escalated on war-leading nations of Local Power Rank or lower. Escalating on war-leading nations of Regional Power Rank causes significant internal turmoil for Regional Power Rank nations (loss of Major Family loyalty, Tribal Clan loyalty or requiring 90+ popularity within Republican Senates)

<Escalation>

Tier 5: Great War/Total War (Available to nations of rank Major Power and higher)
-The losing side is completely destroyed at the end of the war, all nations are annexed/forced to release any nations the victor(s) wants. If a player loses this type of war, its INSTANT Game Over. If on Ironman, save is DELETED and all achievements attained in this playthrough are re-locked. Multiplayer games have a HOI-ish style of peace conference. Singleplayer games, the player brokers the peace but must give out territory based upon war participation.
-Alliances are obligated to be called in.
-All Emergency War Powers unlocked (Total mobilization and Highest possible war taxes)
-Massive War Strain for Major Power Rank that begins immediately upon escalation (major negative modifiers that will break a nation if it lasts for too long)
-War Strain for Great Power Rank (This can take the form of negative modifiers if the war goes on for too long)
-Draws MASSIVE attention from within Diplomatic Range Major Rank Nations or higher. They are HIGHLY likely declare for one side or the other unless they are already at war or are having major internal issues.
-Cannot be escalated on war-leading nations of Regional Power Rank or lower. Escalating on war-leading nations of Major Power Rank causes MASSIVE internal turmoil for Major Power Rank nations (large losses of Major Family loyalty, Tribal Clan loyalty or requiring 95+ popularity within Republican Senates). Escalating on war-leading nations of Great Power Rank causes significant internal turmoil for Great Power Rank nations (loss of Major Family loyalty, Tribal Clan loyalty or requiring 90+ popularity within Republican Senates)

I feel like this will resolve the problem of I:R not being able to support the kinds of historical wars that happened in this period of history (IE it doesn't take 10 wars to defeat Carthage as Rome or Vice-Versa).
 
Upvote 0

Catman115

Second Lieutenant
21 Badges
Jul 12, 2012
163
80
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
In fact here is a perfect example of what im talking about. Im Gaul fighting Carthage for the 8th time (First time declaring directly on them instead of a Gallic or Iberian ally so the war says 1st Gallic-Carthaginian War but its more like the 8th or so.)

Current War progress.png


Im clearly winning the war on land. They did obliterate my navy when it wandered too close to Africa proper but that's small potatoes. Now i figure its time for peace because I cant get at Africa directly in order to get 100%. Here is literally the Warscore cost for the peace that the First Punic War IRL.

Literally the First Punic war treaty.png


I cant even enforce a historical treaty in this game. Here are the war goals i wanted to obtain with this war.

What im trying to get.png


Sure maybe this is a bit excessive in a vacuum but compared to current Carthaginian territory its really not that much.

Current Carthage territory.png


I'm not even going to touch Spain with this war. Under the current War System its gonna take me 10 wars to Drive the Punics out of Spain. Also i need to break apart that Roman Blob to the east that's basically Byzantium at this point (I personally find that hilarious but that besides the point.)
Look i get that Its probably OP to be able to eat massive swathes of Territory in most PDX games. CK2 is about mostly tit for tat seizing family lands (barring crusades), EU4 is about early colonization and forging Europe into what it would become, Vicky 2 is about colonizing "uncivilized nations" (from the European perspective). Really only in HOI4 do you get the massive conflicts that eat entire empires at once. But it was actually a thing that happened often in this period of time (see my list from the first post in this thread).
 
Last edited:

Kantoli

Sergeant
53 Badges
Oct 3, 2018
54
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
I completely agree that this arbitrary limit on demands needs an overhaul. It's been a thing in all of the pdx games I've played, and I assume it exists to avoid excessive snowballing, but the current solution to this doesn't really help the experience.

Representing the strain of these conquests through internal problems, instead of through a 'deus ex machina' limit to annexations, would probably feel much less annoying in my opinion.
 

ohmka

Second Lieutenant
88 Badges
Aug 28, 2014
122
1
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
For me the issue is less about war score cost and more about internal stability after conquest.
From now I always felt that war score was the limit and not hit to stability.
And I think that stay true expect if you go for WC or similar with very high aggressive expansion.

My suggestion would be to scale a bit better the war score cost with country size, mainly decreasing war cost for major/great power compared to right now.
But in the other hand, make the aggressive expansion hit harder and again scale it a bit better with country size (increase it for smaller countries).
Also I would add a happiness/province loyalty debuff with new conquest so that conquering same religion/same culture would still destabilize your country a bit.

The whole objective being that initial blobbing is harder for smaller countries, easier for bigger ones, but subsequent stability is more of an issue.
I would love to sometimes feel that I shouldn't take everything because it could lead to a civil war.
 
Jan 4, 2020
1.900
3.663
Very good suggestions, we support the general idea, but have a few questions and nitpicks:
- Are the alternate names for same tier wars (for example
Minor War/Tribal Subjugation
) just for flavour or are you suggesting any differences between the two?
- Emergency powers look like a feature mostly for republics, are you suggesting something similar for tribes and monarchies?

- Your proposal that every war starts at tier 0 and has to be escalated seems like too much work. A country should be able to start a war at any eligible tier (perhaps with an AE cost for starting higer tier wars?)
- This proposal
If on Ironman, save is DELETED and all achievements attained in this playthrough are re-locked.
is really bad.
Any player who knows about this will just quit the game and delete the save before they lose their achievements.
At the same time those who don't know will get a very unpleasant surprise when their achievements are deleted. These people will review-bomb the game.