Overextension, Governing Capacity, WC and my France run

[BladvakRO]

I'm fighting a reconquest war in the north, mostly so I could hopefully then continue the fight with the Two Sicilies in the south later)...well, in that scenario, I could choose to allow Spain to stay out, rival them, and go ahead with the major conquest of Iberia into a PU. My worry with that is that I've never really been able to pull that off long-term.

My understanding is that you get a PU through missions over Naples/Two Sicillies, whichever is alive at that point.
Your worry is with not being able to keep them in a PU? It's a bit tricky, but easily possible to increase the relations to a point where the union will no longer be threatened by the negative relations. As long as the relations are over 0 between the junior partner and the senior partner, the union will survive the death of the monarch.
Easily done in a few years, since the decays are quite in your favor (and improve relations modifiers help A LOT).
you can get up to +200 relations with any of your subjects
+25 from gifts (I think it needs to be done prior to the union starting)
+25 from Great Power influence
+25 from being in a war together
+20 from forcing someone else to drop their claims to your junior partner's territory (i.e. fight Portugal, make them renounce claims on Spain)
etc

LOL I'm sure that because I don't understand, somehow after I have the PU, I am doing something wrong whereby the union never happens. Or maybe I don't understand union...I thought what it meant was upon the Junior partner's current monarch's death, the land would just switch colors and become mine.

Not really, there is a set of conditions that have to be met in order for that to happen.
In order to see those in game, 50 years need to pass, then go to the junior partner's screen, and hover your mouse over the monarch and see the probability of the senior partner inheriting the country
The biggest country I've ever inherited was a full Bohemia as Austria, I've never seen any other country bigger than Bohemia get inherited.
NOTE: Burgundy is a special case as it's event-driven, not mechanics-driven.

I was watching a video of someone playing France, and they had Burgundy in a PU and that's what happened there...but maybe I misunderstood and it only means....well, I don't know what it would mean if it didn't mean that country just becomes your country (your color).

This is the Burgundy event where France inherited Burgundy as the result of the Mary of Burgundy event chain. It's unique to Burgundy and its senior partner at the time (Austria can sometimes get this).
Each month there is a probability for the event to take place
These are the conditions:
- both countries need to be at peace
- Burgundy needs to be the junior partner
- at most 40 years needs to pass since the union was created.
There might be other smaller conditions, but that's the main gist for this event. And the inheritance happens instantly, with no need for the current monarch to die.

Anyway, traveling this weekend so wanted to throw up these pictures so you saw what I saw...and then maybe could help me understand first what happened, and then the better choice. Sounds like, from you kind folks already replying, I can do whatever I want (as usual--LOL). I don't really have any plans, nor think there is time, to try and go to war with Russia or make them into a PU. Heck, what it all really sounded like to me when it first happened was that somehow I WAS THE JUNIOR partner. And that I didn't want; made me think I had really messed up by not going ahead to just force-add a new heir.

Don't ever force-add a new heir as a Christian country, unless you want your allies with whom you have a Royal Marriage (RM) to break the alliance and potentially declare war on you. If you force-add a new heir, all your RM countries, allies or not, will get a free Force Union CB on YOUR country. And with the latest patch (1.32), the countries do actively try to enforce these PU CB's.

have fun.

 

[ProfCC]

I wouldn’t underestimate your ability to conquer the rest of Central Europe with Spain and Russia as junior partners fighting in all your wars. So long as you’ve been working on your absolutism that is. Given your goals, getting those PUs seems pretty perfect. You don’t need to ever annex them and can just have probably the two strongest non-ottoman countries helping you the rest of the game (once you spend a few years improving relations etc. to get them loyal).

edit: honestly, the game breaking the spanish alliance for you is probably a nudge in the right direction. I’d lean into it, assuming you can get the PU cb reasonably soon. As someone else said, you should be able to enforce the cb just from taking their European holdings, and even if not, just do that first and plan your colonial invasions at your leisure.

I missed this comment MatthewP…thanks. I am wrapping my brain about it, so let me state it out loud so you guys can tell me if I understand it properly or not.

In the mission tree, France has to complete the Naples mission first. They currently have 7 or 8 provinces. Last war, I popped out Sicily so I could go back to war with TS through Sicily for the 25% ae. So, step one, go back to war and take everything, or at least try to in order to finish the mission.

Step two, then….maybe wait a tiny bit for whatever ae to tick down in Central Europe?
Step three, then, use the mission Force Union cb on Spain, declare war and just dive on in.
To win that war, you guys think it is doable by holding all of Iberia, so just steamroll down south.
In North America, we do have colonial nations near one another, so I believe they would be able to take more of my lands than I would take them. But perhaps, if I go in the red a bit and drop a mercenary army or two, I could at least even out any warscore issue there.
But, Step four, I’m just going to get the warscore to where I can take the force Union option? I’ve never done that in a war, but I assume its on that last tab.

When I do that, Spain still exists, is still “colored yellow,” and then I would just work diligently to raise up our relations through all the normal means. Keeping relations high is needed so they don’t attempt to rebel.

And, when I do that, taking Force Union on Spain…does that risk ae with everyone else?
And when I do that, what happens to all of their colonial nations? Do they switch to me? Become independent? Stay with Spain, but I get a tiny cut of the financial action?

Is all of that “right”?

Yes, I can see this. And I can see the reality of no need “to ever annex them.” I’d still basically “have them” as far as world actions go, and I’d also never have to wonder if Spain would join the war. So…bring on the OE!

 

[Guibou]

I missed this comment MatthewP…thanks. I am wrapping my brain about it, so let me state it out loud so you guys can tell me if I understand it properly or not.

In the mission tree, France has to complete the Naples mission first. They currently have 7 or 8 provinces. Last war, I popped out Sicily so I could go back to war with TS through Sicily for the 25% ae. So, step one, go back to war and take everything, or at least try to in order to finish the mission.

Step two, then….maybe wait a tiny bit for whatever ae to tick down in Central Europe?
Step three, then, use the mission Force Union cb on Spain, declare war and just dive on in.
To win that war, you guys think it is doable by holding all of Iberia, so just steamroll down south.
In North America, we do have colonial nations near one another, so I believe they would be able to take more of my lands than I would take them. But perhaps, if I go in the red a bit and drop a mercenary army or two, I could at least even out any warscore issue there.
But, Step four, I’m just going to get the warscore to where I can take the force Union option? I’ve never done that in a war, but I assume its on that last tab.

Yes on the last tab, seems like a good plan.

When I do that, Spain still exists, is still “colored yellow,” and then I would just work diligently to raise up our relations through all the normal means. Keeping relations high is needed so they don’t attempt to rebel.

Yes, they will have to wait the truce out before rebeling but you will lose the union if your king dies and relation with spain are negative.

And, when I do that, taking Force Union on Spain…does that risk ae with everyone else?

Yes you will get AE.

And when I do that, what happens to all of their colonial nations? Do they switch to me? Become independent? Stay with Spain, but I get a tiny cut of the financial action?

Their CN will stay their CN and you won't have any special interactions/exchange with them, when/if you integrate spain they will become yours.

Is all of that “right”?

Yes, I can see this. And I can see the reality of no need “to ever annex them.” I’d still basically “have them” as far as world actions go, and I’d also never have to wonder if Spain would join the war. So…bring on the OE!

Yes, they will always join on your side and all their CN too. Nation will also be more scared of you and be harder for them to form a coalition.

 

[MatthewP]

The only thing i have to add is, don’t overcomplicate things. My advice would be to completely ignore the new world until you’ve fully occupied Spain in the old one. Then probably you will be able to enforce the union even if your CN has lost some land, especially after waiting a bit for ticking war score. If not, at that point you can send an expeditionary force comfortably since you won’t be fighting on two fronts. Your advantage over Spain will be not being spread thin over a huge empire; don’t throw it away.

 

[ProfCC]

Thank you Guibou and MatthewP. Wish I was home right now to load up the game! I probably do think broadly about how to best swamp my opponent. I like to channel my Japanese war strategy instincts and have soldiers prepped in as many places as possible in order to win and win quickly. I’ve always struggle in the “wait on ticking war score” method, especially if other armies are besieging any of my lands.

As far as the ae goes, I’ve been wondering if I just need to toss caution to the wind here at the end, entering the 1700s. There are only about 10 European nations left who aren’t my ally or vassal. I’m not sure if even together they could defeat me. I’ve never had a coalition against me (I was close once as Florence, but I spent about a decade kissing up to everyone really angry, and sitting on my hands), so maybe if one started, then others like the OE or even some of my allies would pile on. I don’t want a coalition, but I also feel so frustrated having to move so slowly in Europe. But, it is what it is…I know I could go ahead and spend time in Africa or maybe go ahead to start the India mission with its 20-year timer…or just lay low, reduce army maintenance and spend a ton of money on more internal improvements.

 

[MatthewP]

Thank you Guibou and MatthewP. Wish I was home right now to load up the game! I probably do think broadly about how to best swamp my opponent. I like to channel my Japanese war strategy instincts and have soldiers prepped in as many places as possible in order to win and win quickly. I’ve always struggle in the “wait on ticking war score” method, especially if other armies are besieging any of my lands.

I very rarely use ticking war score to win, in the sense of taking the war goal and then just waiting. It’s more a sense that if your talking about going into debt or straining your manpower or attention to fight two fronts, don’t. Just concentrate your force, quickly win the front that matters, then refocus to the one that doesn’t.

As far as the ae goes, I’ve been wondering if I just need to toss caution to the wind here at the end, entering the 1700s. There are only about 10 European nations left who aren’t my ally or vassal. I’m not sure if even together they could defeat me. I’ve never had a coalition against me (I was close once as Florence, but I spent about a decade kissing up to everyone really angry, and sitting on my hands), so maybe if one started, then others like the OE or even some of my allies would pile on. I don’t want a coalition, but I also feel so frustrated having to move so slowly in Europe. But, it is what it is…I know I could go ahead and spend time in Africa or maybe go ahead to start the India mission with its 20-year timer…or just lay low, reduce army maintenance and spend a ton of money on more internal improvements.

If the coalition doesn’t include any countries you’re scared of, don’t be scared of them. If a coalition starts forming you can also preempt it by declaring war on

1) a coalition member, while its still small, or

2) a large country that would join but hasn’t yet. If you’re on the verge of being too strong for the coalition this can stop anyone else from joining.

also, if the war that sends you into coalition range is the one to get the Spain PU, it’s probably going to be fine so long as the ottomans aren’t on the list.

 

[ProfCC]

I very rarely use ticking war score to win, in the sense of taking the war goal and then just waiting. It’s more a sense that if your talking about going into debt or straining your manpower or attention to fight two fronts, don’t. Just concentrate your force, quickly win the front that matters, then refocus to the one that doesn’t.

If the coalition doesn’t include any countries you’re scared of, don’t be scared of them. If a coalition starts forming you can also preempt it by declaring war on

1) a coalition member, while its still small, or

2) a large country that would join but hasn’t yet. If you’re on the verge of being too strong for the coalition this can stop anyone else from joining.

also, if the war that sends you into coalition range is the one to get the Spain PU, it’s probably going to be fine so long as the ottomans aren’t on the list.

Great advice. I will double-check about the OE. Of course, I would find it hilarious if they got mad about my ae when they have been chewing up the Middle East and Balkans.

One more question about Spain. Since I wish to fight them to make them my junior partner…do I rival them? I only have the OE as rival because, apparently, there isn’t anyone else except Russia and Spain. It will probably be at least 2-4 years before I can get the PU war started. Just wasn’t sure if rivaling them was a good idea or not?

 

[MatthewP]

Great advice. I will double-check about the OE. Of course, I would find it hilarious if they got mad about my ae when they have been chewing up the Middle East and Balkans.

One more question about Spain. Since I wish to fight them to make them my junior partner…do I rival them? I only have the OE as rival because, apparently, there isn’t anyone else except Russia and Spain. It will probably be at least 2-4 years before I can get the PU war started. Just wasn’t sure if rivaling them was a good idea or not?

If you can remember, the optimal thing is to rival them right before you declare war, just to avoid them getting upset early. The risk isn’t huge but potentially it could make them more likely to rival you back and then possibly do non-ideal stuff like allying your other enemies.

Personally when I wait on stuff like that I always forget though. Regardless you will get a bunch of power projection from getting them into a PU if you rival them.

 

[Guibou]

I would not risk it. You will only gain a few PP but you risk them allying other rival. It wont help otherwise for the war. If both spain and OE are your rivals and they are not rival to each other they will surely ally together. Or another strong nation because they will know you are coming for them.

 

[ProfCC]

I made it….barely. Wow…it was much harder than I thought. Combined with their colonial empires, their navies were stronger than mine, so I had to hit and run on the high seas. I largely pulled it off, while my armies were rolling through the Iberian peninsula. They sent their armies to take out my lands around Fez. But as I got close to Gibraltar, I could not easily take that last fort before their armies came rushing back through. And Portugal had a 3-star General who kept causing me problems. I had to retreat and reload one time, but then was able to catch them separated and push them out of Iberia. Then I finally started to retake my lands around Fez and also down on the Gold Coast. Then, I foolishly kept fighting hoping the warscore would get to 60. As it didn’t, I finally tried to send armies over to the Americas, but their colonial armies were just too much. Finally, in some desperation and annoyance, I decided to see the peace deal options. Both me and Spain were at low enthusiasm for the war, and to my surprise, when I hit the Force Union (remember, for 60%), they took it. ????? ‍

I think I perhaps could have ended the entire war a year or so early rather than trying to truck 2-3 armies (which ultimately got obliterated by the massive Spanish colonial armies) across the ocean.

Once it was all over, I did as you all instructed and started immediately improving relationships with Spain in the hopes that I can get it high before anyone dies. And now…on to the Ottomans. I did keep a watch on the ae, and it wasn’t too bad. And with the OE, if I take any land at all it will be around Alexandria to make a pathway to India. I figure that the OE is my only rival, so might as well take a decade or so in early 1700 to tick off the ae in Europe while also pushing them back in the Balkans. I’ll probably just release nations all the way down to the Aegean, so I shouldn‘t get any ae score there.

Anyway, it was a successful venture to complete that mission.

 

[ProfCC]

I would not risk it. You will only gain a few PP but you risk them allying other rival. It wont help otherwise for the war. If both spain and OE are your rivals and they are not rival to each other they will surely ally together. Or another strong nation because they will know you are coming for them.

It actually wasn't allowed. I'm not sure why...the last time I checked had been no more than 1 year before, and I had the blank rival shield to choose from. But, when I went to start the war and I looked, I had no rival but the OE. Even if I clicked on their shield to change rivals, nothing came up. So, whether that was just that suddenly Spain was not seen as my equal, or because I had clicked the mission that then gave me the option of war for union...I couldn't make them my rival. Clearly, though, counting their entire empire, they were my equals. Actually, on the war screen, they outnumbered me by about 100,000, but fortunately the bulk of that was in the New World.

I finally made the biggest dent to the desperate struggle around Gibraltar by finally getting Portugal out of the war. I hadn't even taken Lisbon, but had gotten their northern half, plus they were exhausted too. I just got out with a white peace so that I could focus just on Spain. Wish the game had let me choose them as a rival for the points (I think my current total in that arena of power projection [the part connected to rivals] is only about 30 right now), but they didn't.

So, I'll hopefully get some points by going to war with the OE, which may last most of the 1700s.