Over Population... FOR MUSLIMS

[Sarenarass]

I feel like I have been making many threads lately.. well, anyways:

I have noticed a common theme that may or may not to be addressed... all Muslim dynasties become larger and larger and larger over time (obviously). But... it always gets out of control.

I was observing one game and noticed that the Fatimids had 100% decadence.. which I also notice to be pretty common in late game. The AI seem to have no idea of how to control decadence... and even I struggle sometimes. So when I looked at the Fatimids their dynasty had 400+ members and 200+ living members... that's quite problematic. Generally as a Muslim ruler my plan is to not grant land to any of my sons because they will only trouble my next ruler... only exception is if it gets way out of hand with like +4% decadence a month...

What will happen after this? Some dynasty with only 10< people will end up defeating the current ruler and establish a new, not-as-populated dynasty. This will be easier to accomplish due to their morale hit and the income hit the Fatimids are receiving due to their decadence. However, this new dynasty will slowly become very over populated and be overthrown later. Now if I was the Fatimids my strategy at ruling would not work... having 200+ relatives?.. and assuming half of them are male... and even less are closely related.. that's still a large hunk of people who want land. You can't imprison all of them... how 2 fix?

Which brings me to my second point... CATHOLIC -> MUSLIM CONVERSION problems...

I noticed somehow in my Aftasid campaign that the ruler of Leon converted to Islam... so he was still of the Jimena dynasty. I checked his decadence and it was 100%! And I imagine there wasn't much he could do about it... unless you would give your land away to your relatives which would be quite a bad idea. So converting to Islam could be problematic if you are in an established dynasty...

Thoughts?

 

[dorukdorucu]

That's the point, muslims historically are bound to collapse at one point or another, unless they kill all members of their dynasty, like the Ottomans did. I believe the system is created in order to simulate the huge dynastic changes that are easy to come by in the muslim world... simply because they are over-aggressive people lol
About the second point, simply make it so only muslim dynasty members count. And/or you create a new dynasty(Jimenid? ) when you convert to Islam.

 

[Comradebot]

The second part does need a looking at. Nothin' like winning an invasion, making some Doukas with a claim on the Empire convert to Zikri, and then discover they're sitting at 100% decadence.

Or even better, have your own ruler become a Muslim and discover you're sitting at 100%.

 

[Velger]

I'm pretty sure converting to Islam /should/ be a problem if you're in an established Christian dynasty. I mean, think about the implications of that in that time! Converting to another religion while there's a bunch of people with claims to your titles in places of relatively equal power? And the sort of things decadence is meant to represent, well.. would you feel totally comfortable and confident about your Muslim lord if you knew the rest of his family was a bunch of heathens?

 

[unmerged(220281)]

I think the decadence mechanism takes its inspiration from Ibn Khaldun, and it's probably supposed to overthrow the standing dynasties. From Wikipedia:

Perhaps the most frequently cited observation drawn from Ibn Khaldūn's work is the notion that when a society becomes a great civilization (and, presumably, the dominant culture in its region), its high point is followed by a period of decay. This means that the next cohesive group that conquers the diminished civilization is, by comparison, a group of barbarians. Once the barbarians solidify their control over the conquered society, however, they become attracted to its more refined aspects, such as literacy and arts, and either assimilate into or appropriate such cultural practices. Then, eventually, the former barbarians will be conquered by a new set of barbarians, who will repeat the process.

 

[Sarenarass]

I think the decadence mechanism takes its inspiration from Ibn Khaldun, and it's probably supposed to overthrow the standing dynasties. From Wikipedia:

Ah, yes, I think I've heard of him/his work before... quite true.

 

[Me_]

In most of my games the Seljuks seem to be doing fine at 200+ living family members. They simply defeat the invaders every time the decadence hits the limit. And one important thing to consider: Muslim rulers are allowed to execute members of their dynasty, except their children, at no relation hit with their vassals for 20 piety.

I have no answer to the conversion problem, though.

 

[unmerged(425486)]

soon the christians will be minorities in the land of crusader kings 2...

 

[Hackworthy]

Ah, yes, I think I've heard of him/his work before... quite true.

Ibn Khaldun is one of the world's most important historians. He can actually appear as a courtier in Muslim realms as well. I ended up making him my Grand Vizier and Court Calligrapher, married him to a Persian princess and gave him a Wilayah to live off of. Out of respect.

Hilariously, because his first name is given simply as "Ibn" so that he is known in-game as "Ibn Khaldun" (Son of Khaldoun) he named his son after himself...

 

[Tirunus]

soon the christians will be minorities in the land of crusader kings 2...

Please refrain from shoehorning your political beliefs into the forum.

 

[Ols]

Please refrain from shoehorning your political beliefs into the forum.

I was more concerned about the garish red text.

 

[Velger]

Please refrain from shoehorning your political beliefs into the forum.

Was that a political statement? Honestly my first instinct was to assume it was a 'muslims are OP in the game' complaint. But then again, I don't know what that particular user's other posts look like, so..

 

[NikkTheTrick]

Please refrain from shoehorning your political beliefs into the forum.

I'm pretty sure that was a joke, making fun of Daily Mail.