Ottomans since Cradle of Civilisation

[Flavius Belisarius]

Hey guys,

I bought Cradle of Civilisation a few days after release and since I have played a number of games both online and off.

I jumped into my discord chat yesterday in which 2 of the guys I play with were having a heated discussion about whether, since the dlc was released, the Ottomans had got stronger, weaker or stayed the same.

In my opinion they have got bit weaker on paper at least because of loosing their cores in Anatolia, the new ways Janissaries work and the buff to Mamluks.

That being said in all if my games the Ottomans still rise to be one of the strongest world powers and end up doninating the region.

I was just interested to see what you guys think and how they have played out in your recent games. Have the Ottomans got stronger, weaker or more or less stayed the same?

 

[aswm]

My general experience with them after CoC is that their start has become a little bit wobbly. But in every playthrough i've had where there has been no players in their vicinity they have been able to get the ball running and blob out like always.

 

[HansBaer]

I only disagree with the "most OP tag in the game" remark. Hordes are still much more OP if you know how to play them, hands down. Also consider Mughals as the most OP non-horde tag.

I was talking about AI performances which makes hordes the opposite of op and Mughals never form.
In the hands of an average skilled player TUR is still the best in terms of WC performance.
To outperform them as a horde you really need expert level knowledge of the game and horde mechanics. So the fastest WC is done with a horde, probably Manchu with capital in Europe. The easiest way to wc however is to take the ottomans and just steamroll everything from day one.

 

[Kergan]

For context, I tend to play Italy, which usually leads me to end up fighting for the Ragusa and Egypt nodes, so as to get a piece of that sweet Far East trade. That is to say, I'm usually rivaled with the Ottomans by the early to mid-16th century and tend to focus my play throughs on smashing them.

In my two 1.23 games they were still very strong. Their start seemed somewhat weaker than usual, but they've grown extensively. In my current one, they had conquered Syria and were steadily heading towards Egypt when I blocked the way by conquering Jerusalem from the Mamluks. Had I been playing in Northern Europe they'd have had no credible resistance in Egypt. Methinks by now (mid-17th) they'd have been in the process of eating up Hungary, Poland, Ethiopia, and Persia. Which is not unusual, though a bit later than in prior versions if memory serves me well.

Point is, I suspect they're still every bit as strong as they were before - and possibly a bit stronger. But they're slower to get the steamroller started. Slow enough that you can get to Egypt before they do as an Italian minor.

One issue I did notice, though: they're missing a fort or two somewhere in Anatolia, and the AI doesn't prioritize building . Without it you can go straight to Ankara once Constantinople falls, and then down to Syria and Iraq, leaving the Ottomans with no place to hide except the Caucasus where they take attrition.

Also, my current game made it clear that they absolutely need Egypt's wealth to thrive. In my first game they destroyed the Mamluks and maintained upgraded forts. Wars against them were interesting. In the current game, by contrast, I neutered them by taking Egypt for myself. Without enough cash to upgrade their forts or maintain a big army, they get roflstomped.

 

[Roki_09]

Isn't there already this topic with 20+ pages?

 

[Blust]

Their early is harder, but once their mid/late game is still the same, just a bit slower.

 

[dynalon]

Something that's probably close enough to the original question that it's OK for me to ask it here:

I was wondering what alliances the Ottomans make in your games. In 1.22, they pretty reliably allied either France or Muscovy/Russia pretty early into the game. Now, in my first CoC playthrough as the Mamluks, they did ally Tunis like they often did before, but their only other major(-ish) allies over the course of the game were Brandenburg and Saxony. Both weren't really out of the ordinary (I allied the PLC, the PLC ended up rivalling the Ottomans and threatening both Bburg and Saxony), but now that I've started my second campaign (as Orissa), their allies are Bohemia, Novgorod, and Ragusa. This is certainly not enough for me to claim that their AI might have changed, but I do wonder if others have made similar observations.

 

[enKage]

Something that's probably close enough to the original question that it's OK for me to ask it here:

I was wondering what alliances the Ottomans make in your games. In 1.22, they pretty reliably allied either France or Muscovy/Russia pretty early into the game.

I would love have Tunis as their allies.
In my current Arabia game they allied Denmark->Scandinavia and Brandenburg->Prussia ay one time and eat Russia extremely easily. I have to guarantee Poland and Russia to stop that trio of terror.
Luckily there is also alliance with Armenia so I can declare on Ottomans without engaing Prussia.

BTW
In several AI only runs Ottos tend to ally Tunis and Bohemia/Brandenburg (whoever conquers the other). I see Prussia formed far more often since CoC so this terrible alliance Otto-Prussia should be common

 

[holyvigil]

Hey guys,

I bought Cradle of Civilisation a few days after release and since I have played a number of games both online and off.

I jumped into my discord chat yesterday in which 2 of the guys I play with were having a heated discussion about whether, since the dlc was released, the Ottomans had got stronger, weaker or stayed the same.

In my opinion they have got bit weaker on paper at least because of loosing their cores in Anatolia, the new ways Janissaries work and the buff to Mamluks.

That being said in all if my games the Ottomans still rise to be one of the strongest world powers and end up doninating the region.

I was just interested to see what you guys think and how they have played out in your recent games. Have the Ottomans got stronger, weaker or more or less stayed the same?

Here's the super thread for Ottoman changes which contains a lot of other people's opinions on the matter.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ottomans-nerfed-the-superthread.1054965/

 

[Knight of the Black Rose]

They are slightly nerfed ,mostly due to the stronger Mameluks and the lost cores in Anatolia.
However, they are still the most overpowered tag in the game, especially in the hands of the AI (a player ottoman has been powerful as hell since 1.0). No other tag gets that much handholding with missions and that many expansion possibilities. The starting position and Geography is a huge part of their op-ness, too.

I only play on vh which may distort my experience. Yet I have to say they are quite ok in this patch at least compared to the last one where they were borderline ridiculous op. However, compared to the other endbosses like France and Russia they are still too powerful. But that's mostly due to bad AI choices, even worse routfinding and lack of expansion possibilities in Europe. France especially is nowhere near that monster it usually became in earlier patches. Sadly, all colonizers are pushovers nowadays because more often than not 80% of their army is stationed on Trinidad to guard the local wildlife.

I've heard the Turks fail from time to time on normal settings yet I've never seen it countless observer games, guess their natural bonuses combined with the vh bonus push them over a threshold where they are just too big to fail.

P.s.: expect this thread to get hijacked by butthurt nationalist in the next few minutes.

slightly nerfed? are you a joke? this is the biggest nerf any nation get since the release.

- ottoman empire lost cores worth 700 ADM.
- this lost caused a lot AE in early game
- ottomans lost 5% discipline, 10% infantry ca, 10% mp. rec. speed (aka janissary nerf) and this was deadly because AI ottomans never ever recruit janissaries more than 5-6 and AI mostly doesn't pay their money and janissary regiments get -5% discipline most of the campaign because this mechanic is broken as a classic from Paradox.

 

[gigau]

A thread on the subject already exists : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ottomans-nerfed-the-superthread.1054965/