Ottomans not attacking Byz / Venice guide

[Monumentiumerongraphataquesqly]

So, I've started 3 different Venice campaigns. This is what has happened each time. I get the early war on Byz (I've done both Fabricate and no-CB). I destroy and occupy everything. Usually I have peaced out Serbia or Wallachia (whatever ally they have). Great, I think. Now to wait for the Ottos to declare war so I can vassalize and then call in Austria and Poland (I've had Austria and Poland as my ally each time).

However, EACH time, the Ottos never declare. They're happy to let me drag out the war. My War Exhaustion increases. The Unrest increases. Eventually, it's sometime in the '50s and I have to make peace, because I simply cannot justify spending all this diplo on keeping War Exhaustion down. So instead I core Constantinople, vassalize Greece, just sit quiet, build up a navy, my eco and hope Austria/Poland don't get into a war.

Yet each time, without fail, the Ottomans simply eat up the Asian minors and the second one or both of Austria and Poland are busy, they attack. They always have a big stack in Europe which wipes out my stack in Constantinope almost instantly (doesn't help they're often a mil level ahead). That leaves me with 1 or sometimes zero allies to help with the fight (since they're in their own wars). Controlling the strait means nothing as they already have armies stationed in Europe.

So I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. Every single Venice guide I read/watch stresses that you need to attack the Ottomans early, and that the best way to do it is to get a defensive war going via Byz vassalization. But like I said, Ottos never declare on Byz in my game and are very happy to let my War Exhaustion and Unrest climb. I remember in older patches, with different nations (like Aragon), the Byz-vassal defensive war strat worked fine, Ottos would declare. But this is my first time playing as Venice and they're just not budging.

Have they simply improved the AI? Does the AI now realise that it's more beneficial for them to just wait me out and strike when we're busy, instead of rushing Constantinople? Am I doing something wrong? General advice for Venice?

 

[Prince graticola]

I'm interested in some advice for venice too. I stopped starting as venice since I always find it hard to fight the ottos. I still have no idea on how to stop them. I just find it super hard, and I always try to avoid them as long as possible, in any campaign. But it seems like it doesn't work, as expected

 

[Vin55]

Well you can wait for them to join sometimes (though rarley they do), start the war when they have a claim for example and dont bother with allies of Byzantium first. Occupy everything. IF they dont declare when you are finished peace out vasallize Byzantium. Build galleys so you have more than the ottoman. Wait until he declares war on someone in Asia and the reconquest cb on Byzantium cores take Gallipoli first then blockade. IF you do this early you have a good chance to have weakend him by a lot. Next war should be the same but for Albania or Bulgaria.
For the Venice start you should try to join the empire so Austrian alliance is good. There are several routes you can then take. For the achievment you stay a republic. You will use vasalls and your trade league also revoke guarantee on knights and albania, they are usless. Ofc the knights should be invited in the league but a guarantee leaves no room for vasalls and allies. Expand on the balkan first gooble a little in Italy, as much as your ai lets you get so 2 to 3 provinces every 10-20 years. Expand in your venice trade node first. If you whant to form Italy focus on the land there, that is the more monarchist apporach. As venice in 1444 you are a defacto great power as you are wealthy as hell and have good expansion roads all over. As ideas offensive diplo and religious are solid for the first 3. Bigger army more allies and religious cb on the balkan and good conversion.
Thats it also make shure that Austria and Poland/Hungary are friendly (one of them is enough) so you have a stable alliance. A papal alliance is also not so bad to not get excommunicated and he has about 14-20k in the earlier phase of the game.

 

[saintlyknighted]

Not sure if it helps, but don't occupy Constantinople first. I've noticed the AI might not declare on your target if you've already full-occupied them. Of course you don't want the Ottomans to get Constantinople, so you can repeatedly march on and off Constantinople, whether to a neighbouring province or to your ships.

 

[Monumentiumerongraphataquesqly]

Well you can wait for them to join sometimes (though rarley they do), start the war when they have a claim for example and dont bother with allies of Byzantium first. Occupy everything. IF they dont declare when you are finished peace out vasallize Byzantium. Build galleys so you have more than the ottoman. Wait until he declares war on someone in Asia and the reconquest cb on Byzantium cores take Gallipoli first then blockade. IF you do this early you have a good chance to have weakend him by a lot. Next war should be the same but for Albania or Bulgaria.
For the Venice start you should try to join the empire so Austrian alliance is good. There are several routes you can then take. For the achievment you stay a republic. You will use vasalls and your trade league also revoke guarantee on knights and albania, they are usless. Ofc the knights should be invited in the league but a guarantee leaves no room for vasalls and allies. Expand on the balkan first gooble a little in Italy, as much as your ai lets you get so 2 to 3 provinces every 10-20 years. Expand in your venice trade node first. If you whant to form Italy focus on the land there, that is the more monarchist apporach. As venice in 1444 you are a defacto great power as you are wealthy as hell and have good expansion roads all over. As ideas offensive diplo and religious are solid for the first 3. Bigger army more allies and religious cb on the balkan and good conversion.
Thats it also make shure that Austria and Poland/Hungary are friendly (one of them is enough) so you have a stable alliance. A papal alliance is also not so bad to not get excommunicated and he has about 14-20k in the earlier phase of the game.

Thanks for the reply. So are you saying if the Ottos don't attack Byz when I have them occupied (which as I've said they never have), I should try solo the Ottomans when their armies are in Asia? I feel it's quite the risky play.

With regards to joining the Empire, I have tried, and I always get an alliance with Austria, but it said my dev was too much or something along those lines. I remember trying this at the very start, too.

It doesn't help that the Pope has rivalled and excommunicated me every single game, every single ruler, without fail. I buy Indulgences and improve relations but it never amounts to anything.

I am not really interested in doing a monarchist blob approach. I want to do a classic naval, republic merchant empire. I want to redraw the map of Europe, liberate the Balkans from the Ottomans and re-install nations such as Bulgaria and Greece as either faithful allies or obedient marches. Once the Ottomans are dealt with I want to take Egypt, dominate Mediterranean trade and eventually go on to colonise India.

I just feel if you don't land the Ottomans a knock-out blow before the late 1450's, they will start to snowball and your opportunities shrink. But as I say, every single guide recommends doing the Byz-vassal-defensive war method. Anyways, when I'm home from work I will try taking on the Ottomans solo ASAP and using my galleys but I have to admit I foresee a lot of problems lol.

Any other advice is appreciated.

 

[ImAdrian]

A byzantium player at start date can declare offensive war against the ottomans and win, even with no allies. I don't see why you couldn't do the same as Venice. So just take byzantium and declare offensive war. Make sure to declare on the 1st of the month and take mothballed forts.

 

[Killeraap]

The Ottomans don't declare on you because you and your allies are too strong. It decides based on alliance power.

I have played Venice quite a few times although not recently. I think you want to go too fast. Attacking and vassalizing/annexing byzantium right away is a great start. This will severely weaken the Ottos and reduce their expansion speed. This also reduces your need to destroy them fast. Just expand your own power base by getting Bosnia and Serbia, and if opportunity presents itself, take land in Italy (Popeland!). Serbian goldmine will help your economy nicely at the start of the game. I usually develop gold mines to 7 or 8 production asap.

Always keep at least 1 strong ally, but preferably Hungary, Austria, Poland and/or Mamluks (2 will suffice surely). Wait for them to join you in an offensive war (reconquest cb from Byz vassal), which they most likely want in time, since they hate one another. France usually doesnt join you, so skip them as an ally. The war really won't be all that hard, just don't fight on their terms, don't attack into mountains and don't be behind in military tech. If you doubt your own warring skills, attack them while they are busy fighting a big war with Mamluks for instance. Keep a strong navy to make it extra easy for blocking their crossing to Europe. I never joined HRE.

Big tip for fun: switch to Orthodox quickly by making rebels in your Orthodox land. Let them take your capital (they will teleport there) and accept demands. It's the best religion in game and makes the playthrough more fun imo.

 

[st360]

You might want to think about strait blocking the Ottomans with your navy and occupying the Asian side of their empire.

Let that Ottoman wipe stack helplessly wander on the European side. Obviously, don't call in any allies, as they would only get occupied and raise Ottoman war score. As long as the Ottomans navy is blocked by yours, a single ship can prevent them from occupying your capital to prevent the worst. You might even eventually trap their army on one of your strait connected islands. Delete all your land forts before declaring war, and Ottomans occupying every land province you have will be like +3% warscore.


With naval superiority and enough transport ships, plus blocking the strait the Ottoman army should be hopelessly slow and uncoordinated for lifting your sieges.

 

[Alyosha]

Venice is all about the navy. If you get naval supremacy (which you should have no problem getting if the Ottomans don’t take Constantinople) it may take a few wars but the Ottomans won’t be able to touch you.

If you don’t think you can block the straits (which again shouldn’t be that hard, considering that the key province in Europe is no longer their capital) take a Trade War CB to weaken them. They may occupy some of your territory but you’ll be able to complete your war goal.

 

[Battlex]

So, I've started 3 different Venice campaigns. This is what has happened each time. I get the early war on Byz (I've done both Fabricate and no-CB). I destroy and occupy everything. Usually I have peaced out Serbia or Wallachia (whatever ally they have). Great, I think. Now to wait for the Ottos to declare war so I can vassalize and then call in Austria and Poland (I've had Austria and Poland as my ally each time).

However, EACH time, the Ottos never declare. They're happy to let me drag out the war. My War Exhaustion increases. The Unrest increases. Eventually, it's sometime in the '50s and I have to make peace, because I simply cannot justify spending all this diplo on keeping War Exhaustion down. So instead I core Constantinople, vassalize Greece, just sit quiet, build up a navy, my eco and hope Austria/Poland don't get into a war.

Yet each time, without fail, the Ottomans simply eat up the Asian minors and the second one or both of Austria and Poland are busy, they attack. They always have a big stack in Europe which wipes out my stack in Constantinope almost instantly (doesn't help they're often a mil level ahead). That leaves me with 1 or sometimes zero allies to help with the fight (since they're in their own wars). Controlling the strait means nothing as they already have armies stationed in Europe.

So I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. Every single Venice guide I read/watch stresses that you need to attack the Ottomans early, and that the best way to do it is to get a defensive war going via Byz vassalization. But like I said, Ottos never declare on Byz in my game and are very happy to let my War Exhaustion and Unrest climb. I remember in older patches, with different nations (like Aragon), the Byz-vassal defensive war strat worked fine, Ottos would declare. But this is my first time playing as Venice and they're just not budging.

Have they simply improved the AI? Does the AI now realise that it's more beneficial for them to just wait me out and strike when we're busy, instead of rushing Constantinople? Am I doing something wrong? General advice for Venice?

AI won't declare if the war goal is occupied because they wouldn't win the Siege race, focus on morea not Constantinople and check the otto mission tree

 

[holyvigil]

This is an old strategy pdox always tries to take away the most popular defeat the Ottomans strategy.

In this case they made it so the AI recognizes if Byz can be vassalized or not (and applied it to every war) and will not declare war if you occupy or siege byz's capital.

 

[petertju]

So, I've started 3 different Venice campaigns. This is what has happened each time. I get the early war on Byz (I've done both Fabricate and no-CB). I destroy and occupy everything. Usually I have peaced out Serbia or Wallachia (whatever ally they have). Great, I think. Now to wait for the Ottos to declare war so I can vassalize and then call in Austria and Poland (I've had Austria and Poland as my ally each time).

However, EACH time, the Ottos never declare. They're happy to let me drag out the war. My War Exhaustion increases. The Unrest increases. Eventually, it's sometime in the '50s and I have to make peace, because I simply cannot justify spending all this diplo on keeping War Exhaustion down. So instead I core Constantinople, vassalize Greece, just sit quiet, build up a navy, my eco and hope Austria/Poland don't get into a war.

Yet each time, without fail, the Ottomans simply eat up the Asian minors and the second one or both of Austria and Poland are busy, they attack. They always have a big stack in Europe which wipes out my stack in Constantinope almost instantly (doesn't help they're often a mil level ahead). That leaves me with 1 or sometimes zero allies to help with the fight (since they're in their own wars). Controlling the strait means nothing as they already have armies stationed in Europe.

So I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. Every single Venice guide I read/watch stresses that you need to attack the Ottomans early, and that the best way to do it is to get a defensive war going via Byz vassalization. But like I said, Ottos never declare on Byz in my game and are very happy to let my War Exhaustion and Unrest climb. I remember in older patches, with different nations (like Aragon), the Byz-vassal defensive war strat worked fine, Ottos would declare. But this is my first time playing as Venice and they're just not budging.

Have they simply improved the AI? Does the AI now realise that it's more beneficial for them to just wait me out and strike when we're busy, instead of rushing Constantinople? Am I doing something wrong? General advice for Venice?

You seem to have quite a good start already. Just don't see the fall of your original plan as the end of your game. your first step is indeed to vassalize Byz, your next step should be to try to vassalize a few of the Asian Minors so you block their mission tree.

In my experience, Otto's are a lot less aggressive on this patch you should just focus on growing your own powerbase and possibly expand your alliance network, you should have more allies than just Austria and Poland like Spain or France. If this is impossible look at some European 'middle' powers like the Pope or Brandenburg, they won't win you the war, but they might scare Otto's of.

 

[agonistes]

Try allying France and Muscovy. Both love to tear into Otto in most campaigns, and both are usually pretty good about coming to your defense.

I wouldn’t ally Poland, Austria, or Hungary. They get involved with Otto on their own. You *want* Otto to have access to other wars in Europe, because that is when you land grab. Naples can be a great ally for Venice too.

 

[RAID186]

All I'm gonna point out here is that having a stack in Constantinople is automatic suicide. It's isolated with zero means of retreat.