Ottomans Nerfed? - The Superthread

[ruzen]

Some shallow people think, people raging because they are turks and their favorite country getting rekt. They are so far from the truth. I've been fighting when Ummayads taking lands from france in CK2, from the early days of eu4 I've been fighting when castile taking lands from france in very early game.

I will still come to this forum and show this circus, no matter which major country at that era. I maybe played 4 times with the ottomans since EU3. They are not my favorite country to play with but the ottomans or france are always a challenge in the game. The challenge is now gone and losing a major powerhouse is region in effecting like a domino and ruining the whole enjoyment.

To put the cherry on top developers like @Trin Tragula saying they still think Ottomans are a major power and the rest of forum is mocking the situation. Honestly, do what you want at this point. Make the game "more accessible" and ruin the game when doing so.

 

[dunyayi kurtaran adam]

So.... After a couple of minutes trying to figure out how Byz expanded, it appears that the Ottomans invaded Albania while they were allied to Venice and guaranteed by Hungary. It seems the good ol' turk don't know they've been nerf'd

Hmm.. seems the exact same events happened within the first couple hours of my first CoC campaign with Mamluks..

From the moment I saw this I knew you were overstating about what you are saying. Here is my first run with an observer.

View attachment 313951 View attachment 313952
I'm legit afraid of what might happen If I continue watching afraid of stop playing the game I love but since Mandate the historical accuracy is going down. You can make of that what you will too.

I dunno about you, but I'm personally having a blast watching the Balkans rip otto to shreds

I mean, AI Byzantines retaking Anatolian land? In my 1400 hours of the game I've never seen that.

Rejoice Paradoxians!*

After years of nagging about Ottomans being OP -meanwhile giving a pass examples like Prussia, Ming, France- and complaining that it's too hard to play as Byzantium. You can finally bury your torches and continue your lives! These nerf don't even come close to France nerfs or any other nation nerfed in the history of Paradox games.

At first, I was really positive about this balancing and even fought back to people who were cautious about nerfs. Because of It gameplay perspective the western EU has Its power struggles (England, France, Burgundy, Austria, Castile) and the eastern has its own struggles as well (Russia, Lithuania, Danmark, Austria, Brandenburg). One of the major power (The Ottomans) has no immediate opponents. In the mid-game, the Russia and the Austria was a treat but It was for mid game. So I did like about the changes to Anatolia, initially.

-Coring nerf was ahistorical but understandable. It's giving the slightest chance to Anatolians beyliks.

-The janissary nerf was understandable and It wasn't represented well by current mechanics but now It's closer about how It was worked but that doesn't mean It's well enough to compensate from the previous boost; now you have to waste 50MP and waste double amount of manpower to reinforce only to get -10% of fire and shock value.

-Another "feature" ottomans received is Pasha system which is nothing. It's not a buff nor a nerf, It's just another annoying micro tool which gives nothing!

Then I started to see numerous buffs Anatolians and middle east was about to receive. I was pleased. Finally, there were going to be power struggles in middle east region too. Now I realized that one of you read about one or two things about Mamluks and got hyped about It and ruined the balance. Now the only top dog becomes the Mamluks.

What really changed has Mamluks dethroned the Ottomans. The green blob is now yellow. Playing the ottomans is now much more tedious with weird ass micro. The balance is only favored Mamluks in the middle east, with an only real enemy to face is the ottomans. While the Ottomans still have their usual opponents like Russia, Polland, and Austria. Now Mamluks join as a strong opponent as well.

The balance shake-up logic is failed in the execution. The Mamluks have to be nerfed or have to fight much more people like the Ottomans; every stream I get to see Mamluks destroy the ottomans now which makes me wonder who is your historian advisor? What is more surprising is the forum is silent about this.-moderator edited another sentence-
View attachment 313953
View attachment 313949

what is tragula saying?

The EU4 team run hands-off overnight games every day. I have yet to see a single dead Ottoman Empire or surviving Mamluks in my own overnights.
Make of that what you will

how can't you see this bugged albania war causes this in your overnight observe games? you couldn't see these or you didn't want to see these? i give my vote on the second one.

 

[PhoenixG]

Hi Everyone!

I've come here with some problems to tell you about 1.23 persian update. Today, "cradle and civilazation" released and i buy fastly as an ottomanphilia. when i play i realized some real difficulites with update/expansion pack

removed Ottoman starting cores on Karaman and Candar was written in 1.23 patchnotes. In 1402 ottomans and timuruids was make a big war which name is "Ankara War" then timuruids return give cores to Anatolian Beyliks. So Ottoman's claim was rightfull according to older version. Now they were removed and thats not suitable for historical facts. Thats the third changing on Ottoman cores so please make a decision mr. paradox.

secondly CaC exp. pack makes lots of country which was great! but if you try to back your core's on Candar/Karaman you will be probably get "coalition" i didn't mention to Treibzon province back.

Istanbul+Treibzond+Candar+Karaman = makes your COALİTİON great.

When i tried to get my core's on these countries i got coalition from
-Memluks
-Serbia
-Wallachia
-Aq Qoyunlu
-Great Horde
-Georgia
-Samstkhe
-Hejaz
-Three new countries more that i dont know their name's. also two of them Sunni.

seems really unfair and meaningless. sorry for grammer mistakes.

Note: I really like exp. back and update without these core problems.

imo your problem is more that you didn't improve your relation with them or don't know how to handle coaltions. Currently I'm playing as Mamluks. I took half of ottoman's anatolia, Istanbul, treibzond, candar and Karaman and the only one that want to be in coalition has ottoman, AQ and Crimea.

Besides that. From what I see of removing the cores, it only delays ottoman's expansion for around a year and their first war will be dependent on what first mission he'll pick. In the two games I've seen he picks the safe guard east anatolia, so both times dulkadir was the first on the choppingblock, while he was fabricating claims on both Candar and Karaman.

 

[Sfan]

Why I find people like you ridiculous is just that you keep on posting the same screenshots of Ottomans losing and ignore everyone who comes up with a screenshot of Ottomans doing well and present it as if the Ottomans were doomed and the game was destroyed. How many of us have play until at least 1700 on last patch to see how the game was evolving with a somehow weaker start for the Ottomans and the possibility for them to fail? Without a few games of experience, what is the legitimacy that anyone has to complain about the game being destroyed. It's just different. In a few weeks it might be obvious that the patch is a disappointment, but so far it's just rant based on screenshots taken in 1500 of something that was unusual before, that's not a proof that anything is wrong with the game, just that there is the possibility of a different outcome.

Edit: I still see no dead Ottomans, and I'm pretty confident that in some of these screenshots the Ottomans will turn it on and destroy the Mamluks. You intentonally do not put the screenshot I've seen on the forum of the Ottomans getting in a war with Venice, Hungary, the Mamluks and minors (worst possible scenario), losing Greece but still invading Syria, for instance. Or any of the successful Ottomans, obviously.

 

[Trin Tragula]

what tragula is saying?


how can't you see this bugged albania war causes this in your overnight observe games? you couldn't see these or you didn't want to see these? i give my vote on the second one.

What I was saying was that in the vast majority of our AI only games the Ottomans still thrive and grow like they always did. The fact that you can find examples to the contrary does not make that any less true
Today's overnights all had the Ottomans as the number one great power in 1821 for instance, far ahead of everyone else

As for not "wanting to see" I find this pretty funny as I have been the one adding most Ottoman boosts over the years, and have had similar accusations from Byzantine fans then

I am however not saying the Mamluks haven't been buffed. Or that the Ottomans aren't able to fail a bit more now. To some people that is too much, to other's it is not.

 

[dunyayi kurtaran adam]

Why I find people like you ridiculous is just that you keep on posting the same screenshots of Ottomans losing and ignore everyone who comes up with a screenshot of Ottomans doing well and present it as if the Ottomans were doomed and the game was destroyed. How many of us have play until at least 1700 on last patch to see how the game was evolving with a somehow weaker start for the Ottomans and the possibility for them to fail? Without a few games of experience, what is the legitimacy that anyone has to complain about the game being destroyed. It's just different. In a few weeks it might be obvious that the patch is a disappointment, but so far it's just rant based on screenshots taken in 1500 of something that was unusual before, that's not a proof that anything is wrong with the game, just that there is the possibility of a different outcome.

Edit: I still see no dead Ottomans, and I'm pretty confident that in some of these screenshots the Ottomans will turn it on and destroy the Mamluks. You intentonally do not put the screenshot of the Ottomans getting in a war with Venice, Hungary, the Mamluks and minors (worst possible scenario), losing Greece but still invading Syria, for instance. Or any of the successful Ottomans, obviously.

why i find people like you ridiculous is still trying not to see the pure realities just front of your eyes. every picture in this thread and the deleted posts proves that you are wrong about just a few games they lost.

 

[dunyayi kurtaran adam]

What I was saying was that in the vast majority of our AI only games the Ottomans still thrive and grow like they always did. The fact that you can find examples to the contrary does not make that any less true
Today's overnights all had the Ottomans as the number one great power in 1821 for instance, far ahead of everyone else

As for not "wanting to see" I find this pretty funny as I have been the one adding most Ottoman boosts over the years, and have had similar accusations from Byzantine fans then

Then i faithfully suggest that remove Ottoman core in Albania too or fix this suicidal wars in hotfix you will release in few days. Really why did you remove all of Ottoman cores except the one in Albania? I smell like a trick from you that core in Albania is A BAIT for Ottoman collapse that people are crying here for that for months. I don't think making Venice guarantee Albania is innocent act from you.

 

[Sfan]

It proves that they sometimes lose in 1500. It does not prove that the game is broken, less balanced, less enjoyable, and it does not prove by any mean what is the percentage of their loss. Play 10 games until 1821 and come back with a trend instead of only picking screenshots going in your direction?

Obviously, there will be a higher percentage of people seeing unusual stuff who post it than the percentage of people seeing usual stuff who post it, so people who see a regular game do not post it and say "Oh my god, Ottomans AI are conquering Byzantium and Mamluks!!!". It went from 99% of success to a lower number, but if devs say that most of the time Ottomans succeed, can you just trust them instead of seeing a hidden plot behind the Ottomans?

Maybe in 2 weeks we'll have enough community data to say "all my campaigns have been a bit less enjoyable now that the Ottomans are weaker/gone in the 18th century, fix it!" Or maybe not. Remember how people liked MoH originally and found it cool to see changes, only to realize after more and more games that it created a boring scenario that is always exactly the same, and that there is an unique strat viable. You can't pick up a few early game screenshots right after release as a proof that something is broken. Every major sometimes failed except Ottomans and Ming, and people were usually happy to see France losing to Burgundy/England for instance as it added diversity. The question of whether or not there is too much diversity now is a complex one, but definitely one you can't reasonably expect to answer in 1 day unless you think insanely highly of yourself and insanely poorly of the devs who tried to balance it for weeks and have valid data based on numerous runs.

 

[szmik]

the only problem I see is Kilic Alay event killing Mehmed every other game or worse.... then they get some 0/1/1 ruler and are kind of screwed

 

[PhoenixG]

from the two games I played in the region on this patch, I would say to the cause which first mission Ottomans pick. Both times he pick the safeguard the east anatolia (which gives claims on dulkadir, AQ and QQ), which lead that he wants to expand east instead taking the tasty constantinople.

 

[Trin Tragula]

the only problem I see is Kilic Alay event killing Mehmet every other game or worse.... then they get some 0/1/1 ruler and are kind of screwed

That event does not kill anyone, it happens on ruler death, it does not cause it.

 

[seriousgigi]

Really why did you remove all of Ottoman cores except the one in Albania? I smell like a trick from you that core in Albania is A BAIT for Ottoman collapse that people are crying here for that for months. I don't think making Venice guarantee Albania is innocent act from you.

WOW

from the two games I played in the region on this patch, I would say to the cause which first mission Ottomans pick. Both times he pick the safeguard the east anatolia (which gives claims on dulkadir, AQ and QQ), which lead that he wants to expand east instead taking the tasty constantinople.

it is not just missions because the ottomans are always getting a claim on constantinople in the beginning regardless of they have a mission or not. the problem is why they don't declare war on byzantium instead making pointless and long wars.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

WOW

It's funny how some people come around the corner with "muuuh realism" and when Paradox adds some more realism to the game in setting up Venice as a directly involved enemy of the Ottomans it's "muuuh nerf".

 

[TheWalttu]

What we really need is more provinces to Bulgaria and Greece, right?

 

[creativitypersonified]

it is not just missions because the ottomans are always getting a claim on constantinople in the beginning regardless of they have a mission or not. the problem is why they don't declare war on byzantium instead making pointless and long wars.

It's something I noticed too in my ai only campaign. The ottomans fought a war against karaman, one against karaman+friends and one against Venice over Rhodes before attacking Byzantium. By that time Venice had annexed Athens. The ai must have been reprogrammed to let Byzantium live longer. And the AI also seems to take a lot less land from peace treaties.

 

[fksahin]

No doubt that if Ottomans will be removed from the game many people will be so happy to see it. They just can't stand to see Ottomans are strongest Nation in the game and did everything for them to get weaker and paradox yielded finally. One last stand is removing Ottomans or not?

 

[Mortheim]

I think that Ottomans are pretty good now. In my game as Arbadil i saw them thriving, but they developed slowly, so i was able to form some kind of Persia (half of territory) before we would have border. Today will continue and, i'm sure, i will be destroyed...

 

[Alblaka]

(Based upon a single, anecdotical, game as Mamluks)
I don't see Ottomans being weaker with the new patch.
They still ate their minor neighbours, kicked around Venice, etc. The only reason stuff like Karaman still exists is because I allied them (as Mamluks) straight away, and then proceeded to eat and diploannex most of Arabia.
At some point, I noticed Ottomans were figting the Ao's, with ~40k troops and ZERO manpower remaining. Figuring I had a slight edge on drill/professionalism and good generals, alongside 48k troops, I 1on1 DoW'd the Ottos (plusminus a few vassals of mine, but their 16k (total) barely moved or contributed).
Troop composition should have favored me (I was running a very cavalry-heavy army around tech level 7-8), professionalism/drill favored me, they were running 20k mercs and out of manpower, generals were equal, they had a 5% discipline advantage.
They nearly wiped my 48k troops with a 12k regiment of infantry (no terrain advantages).
Despite me getting several hundred ducats of presents from Otto rivals, I had to peace out after running out of manpower and money, and barely managed to sacrifice one 24k stack and my fleet in order to rush down the wargoal, to minimize losses to 19% of low value North-Arabic provinces.
Shortly after the Ottomans Independence'd the Ao's (my key opportunity to expand and cut off the Ottoman east expansion), then DoW'd the Ao's (I still have no fucking idea how they managed to do that despite guarantueeing them)...

For the time being, I'm now trying to eat through Persia in an attempt to block off the Ottomans from India in a second line, whilst having completed my own conquest of Arabia and workign my way down East Africa. I'm now the #1 Greatest Power (Dev just 50 short of Ming), got Muscovy (bordering Ottomans on the Black Sea) as ally, and hope I can somehow deal with the Ottos later on.

 

[fksahin]

And in my second game with new dlc, Ottomans lost even against knights in a one to one war, wtf?

Also half of Anatolia is belongs to White Sheep and Mameluks.

 

[Ratanka]

And in my second game with new dlc, Ottomans lost even against knights in a one to one war, wtf?

Also half of Anatolia is belongs to White Sheep and Mameluks.

yep AI knights own 4 provinces in main anatolia xD karaman doubled in size hungary took all of europe ottomans and people are like "uh ottomans still stronk" ... seems AI is not potent anough.

also without cores it seems ottomans let karaman live they just not see to wanna conquer them.

PS:
mamluks who own EVERYTHING in arabia make war vs cypern and LOSE (10% warreps) ... same like ottomans vs knights it seems no one can beta island nations