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OCO

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I think it's more than justified.
"By 1340, Cairo had a population of close to half a million, making it the largest city west of China." (Wikipedia)
How could an "ottoman historian" not know such a fact?
I'm intrigued, is your self esteem really that precarious that you become angered if another capital is more developed than your own in a computer game?

A common trait among most nationalists that they don't see or declare themselves as such. Here in Germany they call themselves concerned citizens, in America they are patriots.

First of all, I am not a "Turkish nationalists" and Constantinopol is not my capital. If you guys stop to critize people's identity, ideology or personality, we can discuss about the thread.

I do not know a source of Cairo's population in 15th century since I am not a Mamluk pupil. I need to look at something more reliable than wikipedia to confirm "half million population". But It should be maximum 300.000-350.000 residents if I compare its population in 16th centrury, Even If I accept a serious population decline in 100 years. Since I can say, in 1554 population records, Cairo had about 200.000 residents according to Ottoman tax officers while Istanbul had more than 600.000 residents. (I can share source names in this night with you)

Come to your argument, it is believed that Vijayanagar was the most crowded city in west of China not Cairo. You can check this in any source you want.
Even Tabriz was a little bit bigger than Cairo during Safavid reign it had almost 250.000 residents.

Anyway, just stop nationalism bullshit and talk about something more interesting.
 

Lordban

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I do not know a source of Cairo's population in 15th century since I am not a Mamluk pupil. I need to look at something more reliable than wikipedia to confirm "half million population".
Here's the source the assertion is based on: Shillington, Kevin (2005). Encyclopedia of African History. New York: Taylor & Francis. ISBN 1-57958-453-5.
 

Shreddinger

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This happens in my games pretty often, especially if I'm playing as Prussia or Russia or Austria and start the whole thing off. As soon as the PLC is weakened, everyone smells blood in the water and piles on.

But even if I'm playing in Korea, the partition of Poland still happens more often than a failed Ottomans. In fact it's often times the Ottomans who end up eating an absurdly big piece of the PLC. If Prussia doesn't form, they (The Ottomans) often go straight to the Baltic.



top 50, definitely. Probably higher.



Yeah, Constantinople is pretty sweet, but at 1444 it's far from its peak.



I hope you're joking
top50? And what would you put behind it?
I don't think that the second biggest slum in the entire world influences your decision here?


Of course not. He said it can't be justified, I pointed out that being the largest city in the western hemisphere is quite a good justification. There is more btw: "Meanwhile, Cairo flourished as a centre of Islamic scholarship and a crossroads on the spice trade route among the civilisations in Afro-Eurasia."
At the start of the game, Constantinople was in decline for a long time and began to flourish again under Ottoman rule, which is aptly represented by the "move capital" decision. What happens afterwards is the AI developing as it sees fit and has nothing to do with "anti-turkish" or "anti-muslim" sentiments as some people like to argue.
Even without the decision, Constantinople is probably the most valuable city to own in (early) game, maybe only shadowed by London and Venice (early game). Two centers of trade in a cloth province in one of the best trade nodes.
The Empire was declining and the people were fleeing, that is true. However, it still remained pretty much the centre of the civilized world until its end. Why else would the Europeans bother fighting for it if the Ottomans were already in Europe? Just because of it's political value? I wouldn't think so...

As for the significance of Cairo: It was never among the important cities in the arab world, to even think that it would rival Jerusalem, Damashq or Bagdad is preposterous. When the Ottomans conquered it in the 16th century, the region further declined, and it did not rise until the 19th century. Are you telling me that EU made a forshadowing towards the british protectorate by giving Cairo such a high development? Could be....
 

Lordban

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As for the significance of Cairo: It was never among the important cities in the arab world
That assertion is plain erroneous. At its height, in the 14th and early 15th centuries, Cairo was a metropolis of an importance unrivaled west of China. What it does not have compared to Jerusalem, Damascus or Baghdad is a long period of historical and/or religious significance (that honor belongs to the predecessing Memphis), but that does not make it any less the richest city west of China at the time of game start, and that justifies it having the highest development of the mediterranean basin.
 

OCO

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Here's the source the assertion is based on: Shillington, Kevin (2005). Encyclopedia of African History. New York: Taylor & Francis. ISBN 1-57958-453-5.

This is from that source: It seems "Half Million Cairo's" Egypt lost population in beginning of 15th century because of plague:

The phrase “Black Death” was not used in the me-
dieval Islamic world. In the Mamluk sources, the dev-
astating and recurring pandemics were usually referred
to by the common Arabic nouns ta’un (plague) or
waba’ (pestilence). From the initial outbreak of
1347-1349 to the end of the Mamluk Sultanate in
1517, there were approximately twenty major epi-
demics that affected large areas of Mamluk Egypt, oc-
curring about every eight to nine years. Mamluk Syria
seemed to be slightly less afflicted, with only eighteen
epidemics over the same period. Given the descrip-
tions of symptoms and the general mortality reported,
it seems clear that the disease was that linked to the
plague bacilli Pasteurella pestis or an earlier variant
thereof. Buboes, for example, were frequently referred
to as “cucumbers” ( khiyar ) in the sources. Michael
Dols has argued convincingly that during several of the
outbreaks a total of three forms of the disease — the
pneumonic, bubonic, and septicaemic — struck simul-
taneously. The outbreak of 1429-1430, for example,
was especially severe and was called in some sources
the “great extinction.” The accompanying epizootics
among animals frequently mentioned suggests a vari-
ant form, or perhaps an accompanying and as yet un-
determined agent.

While demography for this period is inexact, it
seems probable that the population of Egypt suffered a
prolonged and aggregate decline of approximately
one-third or so by the beginning of the fifteenth century.



Egypt’s population remained at levels lower than its
pre-plague years into the Ottoman period. The plague
did not afflict all segments of society equally. Reflect-
ing the bias of the sources, we know more about the
impact on the cities of Egypt then we do on the rural
areas. It is common to encounter statements like the
following in the chronicles: “the plague caused death
among the Mamluks, children, black slaves, slave-
girls, and foreigners”
(Ayalon, p.70). The evidence
suggests that the Royal Mamluks were especially hard
hit, perhaps due to their recent arrival in Egypt, and
previous lack of exposure to the plague.

That assertion is plain erroneous. At its height, in the 14th and early 15th centuries, Cairo was a metropolis of an importance unrivaled west of China. What it does not have compared to Jerusalem, Damascus or Baghdad is a long period of historical and/or religious significance (that honor belongs to the predecessing Memphis), but that does not make it any less the richest city west of China at the time of game start, and that justifies it having the highest development of the mediterranean basin.

Cairo was never the biggest citty in west of China. Never. Who is saying that bullshit?
 
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HansBaer

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Come to your argument, it is believed that Vijayanagar was the most crowded city in west of China not Cairo. You can check this in any source you want.
Even Tabriz was a little bit bigger than Cairo during Safavid reign it had almost 250.000 residents.

Anyway, just stop nationalism bullshit and talk about something more interesting.

Cairo has 24 dev at the start of the game, while Halab has 22 and Damaskus 20. Constantinople has 23 at the start and 34 after the Ottomans conquer it. So in fact, the game values it much higher than Cairo.
That's the reason why you are called a nationalist by many in this topic. You don't take facts and base your arguments on them, you construct perceived facts and cherrypick situations which surprisingly all add up to the conclusion that the Ottomans are underprivileged and need to be buffed. And we are talking about the strongest and maybe even most overpowered Tag in game - AI controlled or not - which makes this thread even more hilarious.
The fact that you call yourself an Ottoman historian and not a "Mamluk pupil" and therefor don't know much Cairo only adds to the impression that you, in fact, very much identify yourself with the Ottoman Empire, the Turkish nation or at the very least are so fascinated by it, that you are biased either way. It would be like studying the history of Germany without studying France which is hilariously laughable.

The Empire was declining and the people were fleeing, that is true. However, it still remained pretty much the centre of the civilized world until its end. Why else would the Europeans bother fighting for it if the Ottomans were already in Europe? Just because of it's political value? I wouldn't think so...
Do some reading, really. Calling it the centre of the civilized world is almost racist.
 

OCO

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Look brother, Cairo was a very poor and empty city when Ottomans arrived. This is very well known and I can bring thousands of primary sources to you. The reason can be plague or something else I don't know really but Ottoman historians wrote that when Selim I entered the city he saw just slaves and poor people. There is a famous story that Selim wears earring to show himself as the slave of Allah when he saw poor Egyptian slaves in Cairo.

And in the source you refered author mentioned this caused due to plague. I dont really know, I need to search more about reasons.

So just go and read something different than wikipedia. Cairo had no half million population. Never until 19th century.
 

HansBaer

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Look brother, Cairo was a very poor and empty city when Ottomans arrived. This is very well known and I can bring thousands of primary sources to you. The reason can be plague or something else I don't know really but Ottoman historians wrote that when Selim I entered the city he saw just slaves and poor people. There is a famous story that Selim wears earring to show himself as the slave of Allah when he saw poor Egyptian slaves in Cairo.
The Ottomans arrived 1516, the game starts 1444. What happened in between is situational, how often do we need to repeat this? What you are saying is that the capital of one of the richest areas in the whole world (e.g. Egypt / Mamluk empire) was a provincial backwater compared to Constantinople, a city in decline for hundreds of years.
 

Coffer

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The Ottomans arrived 1516, the game starts 1444. What happened in between is situational, how often do we need to repeat this? What you are saying is that the capital of one of the richest areas in the whole world (e.g. Egypt / Mamluk empire) was a provincial backwater compared to Constantinople, a city in decline for hundreds of years.
Pay close attention to his activity since his (very recent) registration. I missed it before, but it's damning.
 

Bebou

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I mentioned France and Russia as well. However people are blaming the one who talked about historical realism as "nationalist". Actually the Turkish or French or Russian nationalists do not need such a game to express themselves. These nations already did what they did in history.

Anyway, my goal is just to mention problems about historicaly inaccurate points of this game. As I am an Ottoman historian I am talking about this thread. Someone who is studying French history should talk about their history.

Here are some problems for Ottomans and Middle East:

1. Cairo is now a more developed city than Constantinopol. This kind of bullshit can not be justified.
2. Eastern Anatolia is Armenian/Coptic and Georgian/Orthodox.
Georgian provinces need to be Sunni in Eastern Anatolia. Acara, Hamshin and other Georgian tribes adopted Islam before 1444.
Erzurum needs to be Sunni and Erzincan needs to be Shia Turkish.
3. In Persian and Arabic Peninsula, most of the tags are artificial not tied to history. Devs made some tribe, region, community names as political beings. A religious community is a religious community not a state. They need to find another way to show religious communities or tribes.
4. Where is Epirus Duchy in the game? They need to be independent in 1444.
5. Aegean provinces need to be Greek Orthodox in Anatolia. Especially Izmir and Mugla.
6. Burgaz needs to be Sunni Turkish.
7. Kosovo needs to be Albanian.
8. Macedonia needs to be Bulgarian
9. Malikates needs to be Azeri Shia.
10. Urfa needs to be Sunni Arabic.
11. Elam needs to be Sunni Arabic.

Biggest problem as I see the the way of Ottoman expansion. As Mamluks are quite strong and make alliances with Turkish beyliks. Ottoman AI prefer to go north toward Russia. This causes small Russia too.

How are any of these problems?

The epirus duchy appeared and disappeared depending on the ability of the byzantines to control it.

Not sure why Kosovo would be Albanian since they only become the majority in the region hundreds of years later, after the mass christian migrations fleeing persecution, or even later than that depending on what source you read.

Macedonia had been part of the Serbian kingdoms, empire and kingdom again for a while at that point. If anything it would make more sense it being Greek.

Note on the above. None of these areas are in the Middle East so I am not sure how these contribute to the Ottoman problems in the Middle East...especially since Ottomans dont have a problem in the Middle East to begin with.

Anatolia could have a few Greek culture provinces and be orthodox but swapping their cultures and religions wont change much and in most cases. Ottomans have been made so tolerant they practically never have rebels. Furthermore, these will make things even harder for the Ottomans which will inevitably lead to you and your posse creating another tear filled thread about how we all hate Turks.

Can't comment on the Caucasus don't know enough about the region to give an argument but if you are an Ottoman pupil as you say I can't really vouch for the validity of your sources, since some of the things you are saying are plain wrong.
 
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gigau

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Everyone,
Discussion heating up again… let's take it down a notch, please.
 

OCO

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The Ottomans arrived 1516, the game starts 1444. What happened in between is situational, how often do we need to repeat this? What you are saying is that the capital of one of the richest areas in the whole world (e.g. Egypt / Mamluk empire) was a provincial backwater compared to Constantinople, a city in decline for hundreds of years.

Well, you gave me a source name and I gave you a quote from that source. I bet you never saw book cover of " Shillington, Kevin (2005). Encyclopedia of African History" in your life time. You just read wikipedia and it is writen that Cairo had half million population in 1360. Who is saying that? What is the primary source? A tax record? An historical writing? What?.... Just wikipedia says.

I didnt read the whole book but just looked at a little bit now. Kevin Shillington says Egypt lost significant part of its population in 15th century because of plague. And he is talking about15th century not 16th.

Your source wikipedia says 1360 it is 14th century. And game starts in 1444. OK?

How are any of these problems?

The epirus duchy appeared and disappeared depending on the ability of the byzantines to control it.

Not sure why Kosovo would be Albanian since they only become the majority in the region hundreds of years later, after the mass christian migrations fleeing persecution.

Macedonia had been part of the Serbian kingdoms, empire and kingdom again for a while at that point. If anything it would make more sense it being Greek.

Note on the above. None of these areas are in the Middle East so I am not sure how these contribute to the Ottoman problems in the Middle East...especially since Ottomans dont have a problem in the Middle East to begin with.

Anatolia could have a few Greek culture provinces and be orthodox but swapping their cultures and religions wont change much and in most cases. Ottomans have been made so tolerant they practically never have rebels. Furthermore, these will make things even harder for the Ottomans which will inevitably lead to you and your posse creating another tear filled thread about how we all hate Turks.

Can't comment on the Caucasus don't know enough about the region to give an argument but if you are an Ottoman pupil as you say I can't really vouch for the validity of your sources, since some of the things you are saying are plain wrong.

Epirus duchy was not part of Byzantine Empire phisically in 14th and 15th century. It declined in 1479.

There is no Orthodox migration from Balkans after Ottoman conquest but Catholic migration to Italy and those were Catholic Albanians still living in Italy. Kosovo and Macedonia was never ethnic Serbian till Yugoslavia.

Macedonian population are still speaking a form of Bulgarian but they call their language as Macedonian. While Macedonian was an old form of Greek not a slavic language.

I am saying again I am not after "Turks should be the best" I am saying we need to see what it is historicaly true. Those areas had Greek majority till 20th century.
 
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Bebou

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Epirus duchy was not part of Byzantine Empire phisically in 14th and 15th century. It declined in 1479.

There is no Orthodox migration from Balkans after Ottoman conquest but Catholic migration to Italy and those were Catholic Albanians still living in Italy. Kosovo and Macedonia was never ethnic Serbian till Yugoslavia.

Macedonian population are still speaking a form of Bulgarian but they call their language as Macedonian. While Macedonian was an old form of Greek not a slavic language.

I am saying again I am not after "Turks should be the best" I am saying we need to see what it is historicaly true. Those areas had Greek majority till 20th century.

This is why nobody takes you seriously to be honest. You provide information that is simply wrong. you need but write great serb migrations to get information on the subject of orthodox people fleeing the area.

The epirus despotate was a state conquered over and over by regional powers including the byzantines and ottomans. they spent 90% of their time as vassals. again not a ottoman middle eastern problem.

Judging from western literature (which I would imagine far less biased in the matter) kosovo only gained an overwhelming albanian majority during yugoslav times when people from albania fled to yugoslavia. Mind you they were systematically settling the area for a while as per the migrations mentioned above.

Current Macedonian is a slavic dialect which is similar to Bulgarian and serbian to varying degrees. Most Macedonians I've met claim to speak Serbo-Croat fluently and they seem to understand each other very well even when they speak in their native tongue. The reason I said that the macedonia province should be greek is because it had been taken from the Byzantines back and forth by both bulgarians and serbs. It is fair to assume that at that time their culture was more greek than either of the other two, at that point in time. There was a lot of boundary changing in that region prior to the arrival of the ottomans.
 

HansBaer

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Well, you gave me a source name and I gave you a quote from that source. I bet you never saw book cover of " Shillington, Kevin (2005). Encyclopedia of African History" in your life time. You just read wikipedia and it is writen that Cairo had half million population in 1360. Who is saying that? What is the primary source? A tax record? An historical writing? What?.... Just wikipedia says.
Well, Wiki gives a source. I didn't run to the library and read it. What are you arguing about anyway? Your statement was that Cairo was more developed by design than Constantinople which is just wrong. It has 50% more dev than Cairo if the AI doesn't develope. Btw, in my current observer game Constantinople has 59 dev while Cairo has 30.
CF2ECF2288CFDC762A2F3D875050D712572CDB30

7432D8991892199800CE3D26F7B0E4DA2DD28088

The poor Ottos really seem to have a hard time this patch. (I formed Qing per console, rest is unchanged)
Now, when there are games where the Turks didn't conquer Egypt who is to say that Cairo didn't grow to Metropolis that rivals Constantinople?
If your agenda isn't blatant nationalism what is it then? What do you want from the developers and the community?
 

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Just as PLC rarely gets swallowed up by Prussia, Austria and Russia in the late 18th century, and nobody complains about them being OP just because they don't die.

2100 hours in this game, I dont remember the last time PLC did not implode into smaller kingdoms. In any case, Poland has been great fun in EU4 compared to EU3. Poland can into space, finally.
 

Bebou

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Well, Wiki gives a source. I didn't run to the library and read it. What are you arguing about anyway? Your statement was that Cairo was more developed by design than Constantinople which is just wrong. It has 50% more dev than Cairo if the AI doesn't develope. Btw, in my current observer game Constantinople has 59 dev while Cairo has 30.
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The poor Ottos really seem to have a hard time this patch. (I formed Qing per console, rest is unchanged)
Now, when there are games where the Turks didn't conquer Egypt who is to say that Cairo didn't grow to Metropolis that rivals Constantinople?
If your agenda isn't blatant nationalism what is it then? What do you want from the developers and the community?

Poor Ottos indeed. Similarly to your game, in my Ardabil - Persia game they got cock blocked by me from taking the whole of Egypt stopping somewhere near Lebanon. They hold Poland, Balkans and Anatolia/Syria. They calmly run an army of 190k mercs without loans. but then 190k is just a number.......
 

OCO

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This is why nobody takes you seriously to be honest. You provide information that is simply wrong. you need but write great serb migrations to get information on the subject of orthodox people fleeing the area.

The epirus despotate was a state conquered over and over by regional powers including the byzantines and ottomans. they spent 90% of their time as vassals. again not a ottoman middle eastern problem.

Judging from western literature (which I would imagine far less biased in the matter) kosovo only gained an overwhelming albanian majority during yugoslav times when people from albania fled to yugoslavia. Mind you they were systematically settling the area for a while as per the migrations mentioned above.

Current Macedonian is a slavic dialect which is similar to Bulgarian and serbian to varying degrees. Most Macedonians I've met claim to speak Serbo-Croat fluently and they seem to understand each other very well even when they speak in their native tongue. The reason I said that the macedonia province should be greek is because it had been taken from the Byzantines back and forth by both bulgarians and serbs. It is fair to assume that at that time their culture was more greek than either of the other two, at that point in time. There was a lot of boundary changing in that region prior to the arrival of the ottomans.

Dude, before you blame somebody as wrong just think of yourself. Your arguments are TOTALLY wrong.

First, the points I mentioned are all related to Ottomans. AGAIN I am not saying to buff or nerf Ottomans, I am just talking about the reality.


1. Regarding Serbian Migration in 1690 and 1739. Serbian population migrated to today's Hungary from the lands between SAVA and DANUBE. That event happened during Great Turkish War. I never talked about that regions ethnic identity or that period of time. I said there is no Orthodox migration right after Ottoman conquest but Catholic migration. Great Serbian Migration happened 200 years after Ottoman conquest.

2. Western Kosova under Dukag Principality who was Catholic Albanian was a part of League of Lezhe which resisted Ottomans in 15th century. The migrant Gegh Albanians came to Eastern Kosova in 17th-18th century not in Yugoslavia times. Even Serbian sources mentioned Albanian population in Prizren and Prishtina. Roman sources also mentioned Illyrians and then Albonois in the region. Dukag family adopted Islam btw.

I can only discuss on this issue whether Kosovo's population was Serbian or Albanian as majority in 15th century. But claiming that Albanians came to Kosova during Yugoslavia is a great ignorance. Very very great.

3. Last Conquest of Ottomans in Epirus was conquest of Vonitsa in 1479. Between 1444-1479 there are other conquests of Ottomans in Epirus. I am not saying that Epirus was not a vassal -contradictive- but Despotate of Epirus was there in 1444.

4. I lived in Skopje for six months, went to Strumica, Stip, Kocani, Bitola, Ohrid, Kumanovo, Gostivar, Tetovo, Struga and many more. Stayed in those cities. Every Macedonian can speak Serbian and Serbians also can unterstand Bulgarian in some degrees. Macedonian grammer is completely Bulgarian but words are Yugoslavian because of Serbian influence.
Bulgaria had serious claim over Macedonia in Balkan Wars, WW1 and WW2 because of its population. Despite of being indentify themselves as Macedonian they are ethnic Bulgarians. But seriously they are not Serbian.
 

roooo

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Generally in eu4, the Ottomans don't conquer North Africa. However what everyone seems to be missing is the reason why. The Ottomans ally Tunis or one of the other countries there and they grow, this means that the Ottomans cant take the land as their ally has it instead.
 

Lordban

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Cairo was never the biggest citty in west of China. Never. Who is saying that bullshit?
The very same source mentioned earlier (in full text here), a known scholar, quoting Cairo as "the largest city on three continents". His own sources are mentioned in the relevant article.

From its establishment in 969 and its adoption as the Fatimid capital a few years later, Cairo has remained the seat of political and economic power in Egypt and a city of major strategic importance. The Mamluk Sultanate (1260-1516) made Cairo its capital, and under Mamluk rule the city prospered. By about 1340, not only had Cairo’s population swelled to half a million inhabitants (making it the largest city on three continents), but, as the home of al-Azhar University, it had also become the main seat of learning in the Islamic world. It was also well-positioned to profit from the spice trade from Asia to the Mediterranean. The later years of Mamluk rule were not so kind to Cairo, however. The bubonic plague swept through Cairo in 1348, resulting in severe human losses. Economic losses soon followed, as Portuguese adventurer Vasco da Gama successfully sailed from Europe to India, establishing a sea route to the east and thus allowing the spice trade to bypass Cairo.
For full comprehension, Vasco de Gama discovered the bypass route in 1498 - the "soon" is that of a historian encompassing a large period in his work; a century and a half is indeed not much.

Someone also claimed earlier that Cairo was never an important for the Arab world. They are in disagreement with UNESCO.
 

OCO

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Well, Wiki gives a source. I didn't run to the library and read it. What are you arguing about anyway? Your statement was that Cairo was more developed by design than Constantinople which is just wrong. It has 50% more dev than Cairo if the AI doesn't develope. Btw, in my current observer game Constantinople has 59 dev while Cairo has 30.

I didnt look at all cities in Europe but Cairo is the most developed city in the Near East which is not real. I am not arguing about a thing, you are trying to prove Cairo was the biggest city in the known world and you understood you were wrong. Sorry to wikipedia.

You know why I wrote the problem about Cairo and Egypt development. It changes Ottoman expansion in many games now. This is the major issue in this patch.

[/QUOTE]The poor Ottos really seem to have a hard time this patch. (I formed Qing per console, rest is unchanged)
Now, when there are games where the Turks didn't conquer Egypt who is to say that Cairo didn't grow to Metropolis that rivals Constantinople?
If your agenda isn't blatant nationalism what is it then? What do you want from the developers and the community?[/QUOTE]

In 99 of 100 games Ottomans never reach its peak in Middle East and north africa. Eating Russia or PLC is not an excuse. This is why Ottoman AI does not enter Egypt because of its development but trying to take Russia which is cheaper.

The very same source mentioned earlier (in full text here), a known scholar, quoting Cairo as "the largest city on three continents". His own sources are mentioned in the relevant article.


For full comprehension, Vasco de Gama discovered the bypass route in 1498 - the "soon" is that of a historian encompassing a large period in his work; a century and a half is indeed not much.

Someone also claimed earlier that Cairo was never an important for the Arab world. They are in disagreement with UNESCO.

First, you need to learn about how we name centuries. 1300s is 14th century. We are talking about 15th century I mean 1400s. It is not that hard to understand.
Maybe in 13th or 14th centuries Cairo could have half million population I dont know. I dont care about it. But It was never the biggest city of three continents. That is not true.

Your source is saying Cairo lost its population in early 15th century. And I say Cairo was a poor city when Ottomans arrived. That's it.

Anyway I finish this argument here. Start to read that book :)
 
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