Ottomans Nerfed? - The Superthread

[I_am_Nemo]

One of the reasons why Ottomans don't attack on Byz is Paradox removed picking Byzantium as rival for Ottomans at the game start

Interestingly, Byz starts out rivaling Ottos, but Ottos can't rival back. I don't think I've ever seen that before; usually, even if you couldn't rival them otherwise, a nation declaring you as rival makes you able to rival them as well.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if that was even intended. Has someone seen it in a changelog somewhere?

 

[Novacat]

I dont think Ottomans are supernerfed. You dont need to expand heavily to be competitive in MP because of the dev buffs. Constantinople and the increased Tradepower let you swim in Ducats early game. You get high professionalism earlier then any other nation of the game because of the jannisaries, which you can pump out every 5 years without worrying about anything in the first age. Full drilled Jannissaries deal 20% more and take 20% less damage without counting in ideas and professionalism level.

Just 10% more damage. Drilling grants +10% more and -10% less, but Janissaries as a whole only gets -10% less damage, totaling to +10% more damage and -20% less damage. Still, that 20% less damage is extremely efficient.

 

[CoolSpin]

Ottomans still OP, never seen them go to india before tho!

Never seen Saxe-Lauenberg eat scandinavia, so they must be OP too, right turks? Cus ahistorical.. (Yes, thats Saxen occupying russia)

 

[ywxiao]

So I don't think anyone's played enough games to be a reliable source for how well each country performs. In the 2 games I played, first one Ottoderps allied AQ and ate Mamuluks easy.

Second game I'm Saladin and trying to hold them off with Mamluks, but we can only defend because you all know, unholy alliance is a thing.

They still have little to no problems becoming the number 1 great power and staying there as far as I can tell.

And oh yea, Mingsplosion is back, I'm sure many people have missed this ahistorical abomination. 20 years into the game 80+ Mandate and Meritocracy, a single war that Ming won caused this, pop goes 300 dev LOL.

 

[Kathandis]

Ottomans still OP, never seen them go to india before tho!

Never seen Saxe-Lauenberg eat scandinavia, so they must be OP too, right turks? Cus ahistorical.. (Yes, thats Saxen occupying russia)

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But the ottomans never took over Tunis so therefore their still weaker than their historical counterpart /s.

 

[Fanstar1]

But the ottomans never took over Tunis so therefore their still weaker than their historical counterpart /s.

tunis is +%50 coring cost

 

[Unit101]

The new patch is terrible for multi-taskers. It used to be the case that you could play the Ottomans on hard and listen to a podcast and make dinner and train your abdominals.

The current Ottoman play forces you to not sleep.

 

[Zohtun]

The new patch is terrible for multi-taskers. It used to be the case that you could play the Ottomans on hard and listen to a podcast and make dinner and train your abdominals.

The current Ottoman play forces you to not sleep.

The forum needs a "I laughed" reaction. In lieu of that I click "Helpful".

 

[Dracolithfiend]

But the ottomans never took over Tunis so therefore their still weaker than their historical counterpart /s.

That is predicated upon the idea that Tunis is more valuable then Southern Persia, Western India, and Austria. It is not. Here is another observer game run last night. My computer is a potato so it only got to the mid 1700's but still. No mods at all (not even graphical).

I will finish running it later so the Ottoboo empire can conquer Russia. They already colonized half the Pacific and won a war against Ming (Kamchatka is theirs). They are the 1st great power. The only difference I am actually seeing is that A: Albania still somehow exists independently. B: The Polish Commonwealth was not annexed by the Ottoboo empire.

 

[Gokberk Cakir]

Err, why would the Ottomans need cores on the Beyliks to get them to join? Cores encourage them (human and AI) to militarily conquer the Beyliks. Voluntary adhesion is covered by diplomatic vassalization and annexation and the Ottomans do not need cores to do that. You have just added an excellent argument for why removing the cores does in fact encourage "historical" behavior

Beyliks have cores on Ottomans so they won't join Ottomans diplomatically in game. So no, your interpretation is wrong, Ottomans do need those cores or missions to conquer Beyliks at least if not cores. I honestly think Paradox only removed those cores so people can play with Beyliks for now without having to worry about being declared by Otto directly.

 

[Bibor]

They nearly wiped my 48k troops with a 12k regiment of infantry (no terrain advantages).

I suspect a major tech disadvantage. Also, To attack 12k regiments of infantry, you need 16k troops, not 48. Plus, ottos still like to merc up due to all the aggression. Mercs are NOT janisarries.

EDIT: The Ottomans seem fine now. The only thing I'd change is the Mameluk logic of attacking QQ when Ottomans are not at 0 manpower and at war with Austria, Hungary and/or Poland.

 

[MrMess85]

I think people are forgetting how instrumental the Ottomans were to the entire history of the game.

1. Their attacks on Austria helped create the protestant revolution. Distracting the Habsburgs and allowing the rebellion amongst the princes. Without the Turks the Reformation would have had most likely the fate of Albigensian’s uprising.

2. Their attacks on Poland helped destabilise the country allowing for the growth of Sweden and Russia.

3. Their closing of trade to European merchants helped encourage travel around Africa or westward to America.

4. Their protection and involvement in North Africa helped support the Barbary states and allowed them to challenge the med until the 19th century

The game is not simply a re-telling of history, there are moments where the paths could have taken another direction. However there are limitations to what the game can model and as such the Ottomans need help modelling the fact they were military highly effective and easily absorbed conquered people and cultures. The Ottomans conquered the Mamelukes swiftly, that isn’t emulated through the current game engine. Again another nerf for them.

The Ottomans should be a serious threat to Europe.

 

[Bibor]

I think people are forgetting how instrumental the Ottomans were to the entire history of the game.
The Ottomans should be a serious threat to Europe.

By this same logic, bacteriae and viruses are also grossly underepresented in the game. They shaped the history of europe much more significantly than several hundred years of Ottoman aggression.

The Ottoman empire wasn't *that* big and powerful.

 

[MrMess85]

By this same logic, bacteriae and viruses are also grossly underepresented in the game. They shaped the history of europe much more significantly than several hundred years of Ottoman aggression.

The Ottoman empire wasn't *that* big and powerful.

Yes they were. I recommend you read up on European history if you aren't grasping that. What makes you think they weren't?

Plagues. Strawman argument, ok.

But following on from that. Can you name me a few incidents where plagues in Europe shaped our world?

I'm all for plagues being modelled in the New World, Mexico/Peru should be devastated after the Europeans arrive.

 

[Zohtun]

Yes they were. I recommend you read up on European history if you aren't grasping that. What makes you think they weren't?

Plagues. Strawman argument, ok.

But following on from that. Can you name me a few incidents where plagues in Europe shaped our world?

I'm all for plagues being modelled in the New World, Mexico/Peru should be devastated after the Europeans arrive.

Check the "Social collapse" triggered modifier. It's there literally to model Europeans ruining everything with their diseases.

 

[MrMess85]

Check the "Social collapse" triggered modifier. It's there literally to model Europeans ruining everything with their diseases.

My understanding is that it doesn't remove the development of the provinces, just gives it a modifier for x amount of time. In reality the development should be devastated amongst those nations.

Now if it does that, my bad. Not played Spain in a long time.

 

[Ratanka]

every expansion u try the byzantium fight again and its sometimes harder somtimes easier
but now at 1447 u have all ur cores back as byzantium in a war vs ottomans with mighty allies like serbia and teberzon (or however u wright them) ....

i have the feeling its because there must be a MISTAKE in 2 things

unit movement seems horrible right now and unit positioning as well
i cant say its an "only ottoman" problem but i see it more for them,

examples are like the ottomans have 90k in 1 desert province in nothern afrika and even having the possibility to walk back ... they dont do and take attrition for years and years totaly killing their manpower.

in the early wars they also had enough untis to beat the byzantium army they just ... didnt ... they were moving trough anatolia taking attrition and ... doing nothn

can plz some programmer look into the movement/positioning of the troops there must be somethn wrong

and again if byzantium/serbia/tebrezon can beat ottomans 1944-1947 its just wrong xD

 

[Ratanka]

By this same logic, bacteriae and viruses are also grossly underepresented in the game. They shaped the history of europe much more significantly than several hundred years of Ottoman aggression.

The Ottoman empire wasn't *that* big and powerful.

jaeh look how small they were xD they was the ultimative enemy and jaeh ottomans went that big in last expansions and they dont know (especially since mamluks are totaly op and no cakewalk for ottomans like before) ai needs to be able to grow this big, i aint care if its hard for the player thats fine TOTALY fine, just give the AI some "hidden boni" if u need to

 

[MrMess85]

jaeh look how small they were xD they was the ultimative enemy and jaeh ottomans went that big in last expansions and they dont know (especially since mamluks are totaly op and no cakewalk for ottomans like before) ai needs to be able to grow this big, i aint care if its hard for the player thats fine TOTALY fine, just give the AI some "hidden boni" if u need to
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Exactly.

They threatened European powers throughout the game's period. They were instrumental to the period.

People, if you don't want to read please check out an amazing BBC documentary on the topic - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03d0d5d

I don't understand such illogical hate towards the Ottomans. You never get this with Spain, England or France. Why the Ottomans?

 

[Sfan]

I am used to the map of the 1683 Ottomans.
But what strikes me on that map is that it clearly states that the Ottomans did not own much before 1512, especially in the east. It seems they were closer from Vienna than from Damas in 1512 which I clearly did not expect. It gives some value to the decision to remove at least some of the cores, because in previous versions the Ottomans often owned Cairo earlier than Belgrade. But there should be more weight to go west to balance things if we really want to replicate history. Because some people seem to really want it (which I respect even if complete accuracy is less of a concern to me). Very interesting to have the dates.