Ottomans Nerfed? - The Superthread

[Ratanka]

It seems not having the amazing jan boni all time anymore and not having cores makes the ottomans to weak, in all the vods i saw of the new expansion the ottoman are getting roflstomped like crazy (hungary or poland conquering konstantinople and ottomans NEVEr take whole anatolia)

removing cores in anatolia ... ok but at least give them claims over the former cores, ottomans AI already had a hard time reaching what they had in real life, now it seems they are so weak the mamluks just crash them to death easy peasy ....

give them a bit back its to much

 

[magni_]

Some streams i could watch exactly the opposite

 

[Sfan]

So far I only saw them trash the Mamluks in streams even if they expand slower than earlier. I guess it's luck, and that's nice to see that it can go different directions.

 

[makaramus]

as I know they get claim missions for turkish minors am I wrong :/

and I prefer close to %50 winrate actually for mamluks... since they were both powerhouse in that age makes sense...

 

[Badesumofu]

From a gameplay perspective - I'd expect one or the other to end up as a powerhouse in the vast majority of games. Doesn't really matter which one it is. If anything it's better to have variety.

From a historical perspective - is it really so certain that the Ottomans were destined to rise as they did? An alt-history where the Mamlukes instead came to dominate the region seems plausible to me and interesting to think about.

 

[ruzen]

Rejoice Paradoxians!*

After years of nagging about Ottomans being OP -meanwhile giving a pass examples like Prussia, Ming, France- and complaining that it's too hard to play as Byzantium. You can finally bury your torches and continue your lives! These nerf don't even come close to France nerfs or any other nation nerfed in the history of Paradox games.

At first, I was really positive about this balancing and even fought back to people who were cautious about nerfs. Because of It gameplay perspective the western EU has Its power struggles (England, France, Burgundy, Austria, Castile) and the eastern has its own struggles as well (Russia, Lithuania, Danmark, Austria, Brandenburg). One of the major power (The Ottomans) has no immediate opponents. In the mid-game, the Russia and the Austria was a treat but It was for mid game. So I did like about the changes to Anatolia, initially.

-Coring nerf was ahistorical but understandable. It's giving the slightest chance to Anatolians beyliks.

-The janissary nerf was understandable and It wasn't represented well by current mechanics but now It's closer about how It was worked but that doesn't mean It's well enough to compensate from the previous boost; now you have to waste 50MP and waste double amount of manpower to reinforce only to get -10% of fire and shock value.

-Another "feature" ottomans received is Pasha system which is nothing. It's not a buff nor a nerf, It's just another annoying micro tool which gives nothing!

Then I started to see numerous buffs Anatolians and middle east was about to receive. I was pleased. Finally, there were going to be power struggles in middle east region too. Now I realized that one of you read about one or two things about Mamluks and got hyped about It and ruined the balance. Now the only top dog becomes the Mamluks.

What really changed has Mamluks dethroned the Ottomans. The green blob is now yellow. Playing the ottomans is now much more tedious with weird ass micro. The balance is only favored Mamluks in the middle east, with an only real enemy to face is the ottomans. While the Ottomans still have their usual opponents like Russia, Polland, and Austria. Now Mamluks join as a strong opponent as well.

The balance shake-up logic is failed in the execution. The Mamluks have to be nerfed or have to fight much more people like the Ottomans; every stream I get to see Mamluks destroy the ottomans now which makes me wonder who is your historian advisor? What is more surprising is the forum is silent about this.-moderator edited another sentence-

 

[Benmorris111]

Ah yes, because it is not at all unfair to judge the relative power of the Mamluks and the Ottomans after a couple of pre-release streams, as everyone knows that such things are entirely representative of the final game. And of course, it is completely absurd for people to not want the Ottomans to wipe the floor with the Mamluks every single game. Anyone who would think otherwise must, as you so aptly pointed out, just HATE the Turks! It can't be that people believe that some changes were needed and that the changes made seem appropriate thus far.

Honestly, if in a month or so we find out that the Mamluks are beating back the Ottomans most games and that the balance of power in the middle east has completely changed, you may end up being right. However, we have very little evidence of that right now (a couple of streams is not much to go on) and so to call the change poorly executed is premature, and to act like it's some kind of prejudice is downright dishonest.

 

[Badesumofu]

What is more surprising is the forum is silent about this

This is like the 4th thread about this in 2 days.

And they are all equally tedious because they are all based on either 2 time-lapses or a couple of streams. We quite simply do not know what the normal will be in 1.23.

 

[Mercator7]

I would love to know how you managed to get your hands on a copy of the DLC and patch already, because you clearly seem to have played it enough to write a review about it already.

I'd also like to point out that there are multiple threads on the subject already, so please don't go projecting your persecution complex onto the forums.

 

[Zwirbaum]

From my off-stream/off-yt Aztec playthrough, so I had almost 0 interaction with old world (I reformed around 1560 or so - lazy Euro gits)

Funny thing, those poor poor Ottomans, right?

Janissaries incur double monetary reinforcement cost, not manpower one. (33,177 - 600 = 32,577 - last month manpower pool was at maximum, so there was no added monthly manpower, but substracted reinforcment from the pool, cost 600 so no double cost)

Also now the cost for Janissaries is scaled, so you pay 10 MIL for each 1 regiment raised. So 20 dev. of heathen will give you 2 janissaries regiments and will cost 20 MIL.

Pasha system with reduced state maintenance and lowered unrest ain't that bad.

And as mentioned above - do not draw the conclusions from couple videos and streams before release, in my experience so far Ottomans usually prevail over the Mamluks and not the other way round - but that may as well be just my case/my luck. Limited exposure/limited number of runs is not a good place to draw conclusions.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The EU4 team run hands-off overnight games every day. I have yet to see a single dead Ottoman Empire or surviving Mamluks in my own overnights.
Make of that what you will

 

[Vivi_]

You can steamroll over the world with your Turkish panzer division on hard mode.

Aside making OTO trickier to play for beginners, I don't see much changes for experienced players. Don't forget you now get a shitload of countries to ally with in the Arabic peninsula and in the Persian Mountains.

Just lock Mamluks' borders from the start and ez game ez life.

 

[Ratanka]

The EU4 team run hands-off overnight games every day. I have yet to see a single dead Ottoman Empire or surviving Mamluks in my own overnights.
Make of that what you will

jaeh but DEAD isnt what we mean ... historical they conquered their way to vienna and all of mamluks etc

now they are ... alive but small ... normaly getting beaten down alot and later in game then rise when its normaly the time for them to fall ...

sure they was strong but they WERE strong in real time too and the core removing and all is just ... to much ...

i RLY aint care if i play ottomans, i crush everything still. but ai has to much problems with lucky nations off

You can steamroll over the world with your Turkish panzer division on hard mode.

Aside making OTO trickier to play for beginners, I don't see much changes for experienced players. Don't forget you now get a shitload of countries to ally with in the Arabic peninsula and in the Persian Mountains.

Just lock Mamluks' borders from the start and ez game ez life.

ME as ottomans isnt the problem . .. the problem is AI as ottomans, if u play serbia and have a cakewalk vs ottomans its aint fun

 

[holyvigil]

Even though your post seems to be untrue according to the devs, I would still like to raise a toast since you have finally seen the light. Now that we have burned our proverbial witch we can go about our normal days of ignorance at the farm continuing to be ignit and generally not reading history as the great enemy has been defeated. So this one is to you.

 

[Ratanka]

as I know they get claim missions for turkish minors am I wrong :/

and I prefer close to %50 winrate actually for mamluks... since they were both powerhouse in that age makes sense...

the problem is the ai then as for a player its not a probem

as a player i want a strong ottomans as lategame enemy they are supposed to be the SUPERPOWER to beat and so the ai need to be stronk!

but 5 years of 100 threads a day of "mimimi ottomans to strong" seems to have worked ...

paradox is listeing to much to whiners cry about france ottomans etc and nerf way to harsh but this game isnt supposed to be balanced its supposed to be super op nations

 

[creativitypersonified]

They didn't conquer their way to Vienna. In game terms it would be an occupation. And they were facing serious issues from the mamlucks in their early years. And they did no manage to subjugate Persia either. They were ere not the behemoth we see in the game most of the time.

 

[seriousgigi]

as I know they get claim missions for turkish minors am I wrong :/

and I prefer close to %50 winrate actually for mamluks... since they were both powerhouse in that age makes sense...

mamluks powerhouse? powerhouses can't be completely annexed in 2 small years.

no ottoman empire will not get missions for anatolia. here the funny thing;

- austria gets permanent claims on royal hungary
- russia gets permanent claims on half of eastern europe including crimea
- ottoman empire doesn't have any permanent or normal claim on anatolia.

what a joke...

 

[Sfan]

I won't even answer to the troll first post, it's obvious it's not serious when he says "What is more surprising is the forum is silent about this."
Besides, I already tried to answer to the first 3 posts.


If I have a concern, it's that the Ottomans seem a bit weaker now, even when they kill the Mamluks, and they are needed from balance perspective to provide a lategame threat because France is ahistorically weak and unable to hold off half/all of Europe as they did on multiple occasions (Louis XIV wars vs Netherlands, Spanish succession war, and obviously the Napoleonic wars even if the Revolutionary bonuses are supposed to represent that).

 

[Mister X]

Well what can you do

Ottomans coming to power seems to stem from some sort of effect where being in their vicinity makes your entire country maximally incompetent, historically

 

[bly08]

From a pure gameplay perspective, I dislike the Ottoman nerf because they were the best country for players trying to WC for the first time. It's a straightforward start with no HRE mechanics, no tag switching, no alliance/PU RNG, and plenty of room for error. There's also the option to make it more interesting with conversions and different expansion paths. I learned a lot of basic game management from the run including finances, trade, war macro/micro, coalition management, etc, which apply to every other start as well. It was a great learning tool if nothing else.

The 1.23 changes added extra mechanics, some unneeded (-unrest with higher recruitment cost in stated cores what), and others that are straight up nerfs or 0 net gain/loss mechanics with more complicated cost/benefit to consider. Mamluks are stronger, though probably not by much early game unless their force limit changes. The nerfs were seemingly geared toward the vocal base of the community ("nerf the Ottomans") who see every challenge as insurmountable and evidence of bad game design. The Ming nerfs feel the same, they don't address the issues with EoC or static gameplay, but rather only make blobbing easier and the game less challenging.

On a related note, I don't believe the word "overpowered" has much meaning in EU4. OP with respect to history, multiplayer, or something else? Not all starts are created equal, it's not an RTS. When balance decisions reflect the community's wishes, it should be recognized that the voice of the masses will inevitably demand a lower skill ceiling along with extraneous features. That's not to say there aren't plenty of good suggestions regarding QoL and historical flavor. I hope developers will trust their instincts and weed out the bad suggestions instead of giving in to the loudest voice.