Ottomans joined Protestant League...?

[monsterfurby]

The vast majority of nations in the leagues were a part of the European diplomatic system. There is no way you can concoct an alternate history which places Ottoman diplomats at the negotiating table of Münster and Osnabruck, hammering out the Treaty of Westphalia. The Ottomans were definitively outside of that system of diplomacy, and thus having them join the leagues in nearly every game is absurd.

The only reasonably accurate way to represent the potential for Ottoman intervention is to allow them to declare a separate war on Austria while the 30 Years' War is raging. And that they can currently do.

But that's not necessarily what the "League" mechanic tries to simulate.

"Leagues" in the game sense aren't the same thing as the formalized historical entities of the Catholic League and Protestant Union (which wasn't all that cohesive to begin with) - or even for just the major political players (France, Sweden, Austria, etc) for that matter - but more of a catch-all for all belligerents in the wars.

In a way, it's the old Europa Universalis issue: the mechanic is far more abstract than the real-life context it borrows its name from.

 

[SilasW]

Yeah there's a reason I think that the system should be multi-levelled, have "member" (who have to be in the HRE) and "supporters" (who can be from outside the HRE) who contribute money and manpower. Maybe also being able to send one extra large Condottieri army to fight for the side they support,. but they only gain power projection from supporting a side opposed to a rival and don't actually join the war or gain anything from the peace.

 

[Chamboozer]

But that's not necessarily what the "League" mechanic tries to simulate.

"Leagues" in the game sense aren't the same thing as the formalized historical entities of the Catholic League and Protestant Union (which wasn't all that cohesive to begin with) - or even for just the major political players (France, Sweden, Austria, etc) for that matter - but more of a catch-all for all belligerents in the wars.

What are "the wars"?

This is where the problem appears. You're using a very wide definition of the Thirty Years' War which makes it appear more cohesive than it was in reality. Imagine an alternate history in which Muscovy attacks Sweden in 1634 in an effort to take Livonia - perhaps the Habsburgs might try to encourage them to fight harder or send them some sort of support. Does that mean that Muscovy has intervened in the Thirty Years' War? Of course not. Muscovy is attacking Sweden for its own reasons and with its own motives. It's going to stop attacking Sweden when it stops being convenient for it to continue. It has no special attachment to the Catholic cause. It's making use of the opportunity.

The Ottomans are the same. If they attacked Austria they might receive encouragement and support from France. But are they really intervening in the Thirty Years' War as such? Are they really taking up the Protestant cause? Of course not. They don't understand the nuances of HRE politics and European diplomacy. They and the Protestants might try to use one another as tools to achieve their mutual goals, but they have fundamentally different attitudes toward the conflict. The Ottomans aren't in it to the end, determined to bring down the Habsburg giant. They're just looking to use the opportunity to push forward their border in Hungary, and will drop out of the fight when it's convenient for them. Just like Muscovy.

Their war would be fundamentally separate, even if they may share some of the same enemies.

Now you can take a position like "every potential war involving a member of the Holy Roman Empire during that period is part of the Thirty Years War," but if we go with that then we give up on the possibility of making the Thirty Years' War anything special. And everyone complaining about the Ottomans joining should be told not that it's realistic (it's not), but that the leagues are just a contrived way to create a massive war and aren't all that connected to history.

 

[Noel84]

What are "the wars"?

This is where the problem appears. You're using a very wide definition of the Thirty Years' War which makes it appear more cohesive than it was in reality. Imagine an alternate history in which Muscovy attacks Sweden in 1634 in an effort to take Livonia - perhaps the Habsburgs might try to encourage them to fight harder or send them some sort of support. Does that mean that Muscovy has intervened in the Thirty Years' War? Of course not. Muscovy is attacking Sweden for its own reasons and with its own motives. It's going to stop attacking Sweden when it stops being convenient for it to continue. It has no special attachment to the Catholic cause. It's making use of the opportunity.

The Ottomans are the same. If they attacked Austria they might receive encouragement and support from France. But are they really intervening in the Thirty Years' War as such? Are they really taking up the Protestant cause? Of course not. They don't understand the nuances of HRE politics and European diplomacy. They and the Protestants might try to use one another as tools to achieve their mutual goals, but they have fundamentally different attitudes toward the conflict. The Ottomans aren't in it to the end, determined to bring down the Habsburg giant. They're just looking to use the opportunity to push forward their border in Hungary, and will drop out of the fight when it's convenient for them. Just like Muscovy.

Their war would be fundamentally separate, even if they may share some of the same enemies.

Now you can take a position like "every potential war involving a member of the Holy Roman Empire during that period is part of the Thirty Years War," but if we go with that then we give up on the possibility of making the Thirty Years' War anything special. And everyone complaining about the Ottomans joining should be told not that it's realistic (it's not), but that the leagues are just a contrived way to create a massive war and aren't all that connected to history.

honestly many of the real interventions in the thritty years war were about politics more than religion. Spain wanted to crush the dutch, scandinavia wanted to influence northern germany and france wanted to weaken the habsburgs

 

[Chamboozer]

honestly many of the real interventions in the thritty years war were about politics more than religion. Spain wanted to crush the dutch, scandinavia wanted to influence northern germany and france wanted to weaken the habsburgs

And Ferdinand II wanted to reverse the progress of the Reformation by enforcing Ecclesiastical Reservation and reverting secularized land back to Catholic control. Politics and religion were interconnected, but one shouldn't let the existence of the former blind one to the latter.

Anyway, my point is that when it came to European diplomacy, the Ottomans were always opportunists. They never committed themselves to any long-term military obligations, which is what bothers me about their frequent tendency to join the leagues, committing themselves decades in advance to a war which they have no control over. They're perfectly capable of 'intervening' by declaring their own war if they want.

 

[Noel84]

And Ferdinand II wanted to reverse the progress of the Reformation by enforcing Ecclesiastical Reservation and reverting secularized land back to Catholic control. Politics and religion were interconnected, but one shouldn't let the existence of the former blind one to the latter.

Anyway, my point is that when it came to European diplomacy, the Ottomans were always opportunists. They never committed themselves to any long-term military obligations, which is what bothers me about their frequent tendency to join the leagues, committing themselves decades in advance to a war which they have no control over. They're perfectly capable of 'intervening' by declaring their own war if they want.

but I feel like just putting it up to a random ottoman DOW would be even less realistic. They immediately began negotiations with bohemia that only stopped because of a tough war. Without the war with poland intervention was pretty much certain

 

[Milan23]

Mostly up to Rivalries. The prime factor of choice is religion, but if a rival is in a league, the ai will join the opposing league.

Yeah i know, couldnt you sense the sarcasm?