Ottomans joined Protestant League...?

[aazo5]

It just seems kind of inaccurate that the Ottomans are doing things like allying European countries (sometimes minor countries like Milan) and joining Christian leagues.

I understand that the Ottomans feel that Austria is preventing them from expanding further into Europe, but that doesn't mean that they would join the Protestant league, which would mean that Ottoman diplomats are sitting down with European diplomats.

The Ottomans should just use the Thirty Years' war as a good time for going to war with Austria, while they are busy.

 

[benice1234]

Yeah, very silly. Kinda like France joining the Protestant League. Why would they ever do that? They're staunch Catholics!

 

[Kwami]

This has been happening since leagues were added. It also kind of happened in real life.

 

[andersonm]

Yeah who would think the Ottomans would ever join an alliance against their best friend Austria? Totally crazy!!!

 

[Hootieleece]

The French were the paymasters for the Protestant cause IRL. They entered the war near the end. Technically the Ottoman's also joined IRL. They just really didn't do anything.

 

[Milan23]

Err Ottomans join the Protestant league in the vast majority of my saves prior to 1.16. I think it could be something to do with them hating the Catholic league leader but I'm not too sure...

 

[Kapi96]

We get way too many of these threads. It's also fairly historically accurate as well, so calling it a historical immersion breaker is just plain wrong...

 

[Zohtun]

I've joined the Protestant League as outsiders (Ottomans, Muscovy, Anyone really who hates the Catholic Leader, who is normally Austria) plenty of times, why would it be any different when the AI is in charge?

 

[aazo5]

Can someone explain how it makes sense historically?

I don't understand why a Sunni nation would side with Christian nations against other Christian nations.

 

[aazo5]

We get way too many of these threads. It's also fairly historically accurate as well, so calling it a historical immersion breaker is just plain wrong...

I'm sorry. I didn't know.

 

[Noel84]

At one point the ottoman empire offered 60 thousand cavalry to help bohemia in the beginning of the thirty years war. Then they got involved in a big war with poland that prevented them from actually intervening

 

[SaphireSeas]

Can someone explain how it makes sense historically?

I don't understand why a Sunni nation would side with Christian nations against other Christian nations

Austria is the Emperor, and the Turks are opposed to the power Austria holds over the empire. Supporting their enemies is perfectly believable.

Err Ottomans join the Protestant league in the vast majority of my saves prior to 1.16. I think it could be something to do with them hating the Catholic league leader but I'm not too sure...

Mostly up to Rivalries. The prime factor of choice is religion, but if a rival is in a league, the ai will join the opposing league.

 

[aazo5]

I was not aware. Sorry for starting a ruckus.

 

[Noel84]

Can someone explain how it makes sense historically?

I don't understand why a Sunni nation would side with Christian nations against other Christian nations.

The same reason the allies allied with stalin. Or the same reason all of europe allied against napoleon. the same reason that the ROC and PRC allied against Japan. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[andersonm]

Can someone explain how it makes sense historically?

I don't understand why a Sunni nation would side with Christian nations against other Christian nations.

Well, if you are looking from a strictly secular point of view, Austria was the main impediment to further Ottoman expansion into Europe so they took any chance they could to ally with their enemies to knock them down a peg. Secondly, supporting the Protestant Reformation damaged the legitimacy of Christianity in general so any chance to help widen the schism was certainly an extra bonus to a Muslim power.

 

[aazo5]

The same reason the allies allied with stalin. Or the same reason all of europe allied against napoleon. the same reason that the ROC and PRC allied against Japan. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Well, if you are looking from a strictly secular point of view, Austria was the main impediment to further Ottoman expansion into Europe so they took any chance they could to ally with their enemies to knock them down a peg. Secondly, supporting the Protestant Reformation damaged the legitimacy of Christianity in general so any chance to help widen the schism was certainly an extra bonus to a Muslim power.

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

 

[Chamboozer]

It's not historically accurate. It's just not. The Ottomans didn't intervene in the war in real life, and if they had it would have constituted simply launching military campaigns against Austria. In other words, launching a separate war in which they pursued their own independent objectives. It makes no sense for the Ottomans to be giving up their diplomatic autonomy to a Christian military league.

Austria is the Emperor, and the Turks are opposed to the power Austria holds over the empire. Supporting their enemies is perfectly believable.

Supporting their enemies is believable. Surrendering their diplomatic autonomy and allowing themselves to be forced to fight for a non-Muslim religious league as a part of a diplomatic system into which the Ottomans were not themselves integrated, on the other hand, is not.

 

[Noel84]

It's not historically accurate. It's just not. The Ottomans didn't intervene in the war in real life, and if they had it would have constituted launching military campaigns against Austria. In other words, launching a separate war in which they pursued their own independent objectives. It makes no sense for the Ottomans to be giving up their diplomatic autonomy to a Christian military league.




Supporting their enemies is believable. Surrendering their diplomatic autonomy and allowing themselves to be forced to fight for a non-Muslim religious league as a part of a diplomatic system into which the Ottomans were not themselves integrated, on the other hand, is not.

the same can be said for the vast majority of nations in the leagues, because the leagues are just an abstraction of the massive sides in the thirty years war. I'm sure that if the ottoderps hadn't been bogged down in poland they would have attacked austria, and it would be lumped into the 'thirty years war' (which was actually a series of many different wars), so honestly for what the leagues represent in game I'd say the ottos fit in.

 

[Chamboozer]

the same can be said for the vast majority of nations in the leagues, because the leagues are just an abstraction of the massive sides in the thirty years war. I'm sure that if the ottoderps hadn't been bogged down in poland they would have attacked austria, and it would be lumped into the 'thirty years war' (which was actually a series of many different wars), so honestly for what the leagues represent in game I'd say the ottos fit in.

The vast majority of nations in the leagues were a part of the European diplomatic system. There is no way you can concoct an alternate history which places Ottoman diplomats at the negotiating table of Münster and Osnabruck, hammering out the Treaty of Westphalia. The Ottomans were definitively outside of that system of diplomacy, and thus having them join the leagues in nearly every game is absurd.

The only reasonably accurate way to represent the potential for Ottoman intervention is to allow them to declare a separate war on Austria while the 30 Years' War is raging. And that they can currently do.

 

[Noel84]

The vast majority of nations in the leagues were a part of the European diplomatic system. There is no way you can concoct an alternate history which places Ottoman diplomats at the negotiating table of Münster and Osnabruck, hammering out the Treaty of Westphalia. The Ottomans were definitively outside of that system of diplomacy, and thus having them join the leagues in nearly every game is absurd.

The only way to represent the potential for Ottoman intervention is to allow them to declare a separate war on Austria while the 30 Years' War is raging. And that they can currently do.

I'm sure that if the ottos invaded austria and france still intervened, the ottos would have either been at westphalia, or concluded a treaty simultaneously with the one at westphalia. I admit it's not a perfect representation, but it's not much worse than anyone else. A better solution would probably be to have the leagues be purely within the hre, but make it so that external powers get an event to join the war on one side or in the case of the ottomans directly DOW Austria