Ottomans are unplayable.

[unmerged(201792)]

I have come to the conclusion that the Ottomans are unplayable. My worst problem is that the alliances are way to big. Every time someone dows me I am instanlty at war with fifteen nations. Which wouldn't be so bad by itself, but every dow seems to be followed by at least 2 more alliances of at least fifteen members dowing me because of low war capacity. Even this would be managable if the AI wasn't so rediculously aggressive. Every single OPM will just constantly spam single regiments and cogs and just send them out every chance they get. Every medium and large power will constantly spam medium and large stacks until its fleet is destroyed and then they will start spamming single regiments and cogs OPM-style dispite having over 10 WE.

Naval superiority does not mean anything for the Ottomans since no matter how many times I have destroyed the combined English-Castillian-Portugese-Swedish-Danish-French-Burgundian Fleets they will still have them 100% rebuilt by the time the truce expires so they can all dow me again for no other reason besides "they can." Having a massive carrack fleet with superior seamanship still doesn't help defend the coastline since enemy armies can unload while the fleets are engaging (even if the defending fleet is sitting and waiting in the adjacent sea tile) and since naval battles can last for several weeks before resolving.

And then there are hordes. The horde mechanism sort of makes sense for modeling the relationship between Russia and the GH, but thats it. It simply doesn't make any sense that the only way to conquer parts of the Timurid Empire is by a slow and expensive colonization process designed to model the Russian expansion into the steppes. Even colonizing just enough land to make a minimum vassal wall took me 50 years and cost me 9% inflation.

One other thing that bothers me about this game is that it is hard to maintain good relations with any other nations. My neighbor Syria has already dowed me 3 times (all times without cb). I even colonized of his provinces from the Timurids and sold it to him for nothing. Since we are at -200 relationship he will probably keep dowing me every chance he gets. The only thing I can do at this point is send gifts and get royal marriage. But gifting is extremely boring and tedious as well as expensive and time consuming. There should be other ways to boost relations.

Also, before any of you say it, I was playing with low agressive game setting. On a semi-related note: Does anyone know of any tricks for building a COT as the Ottomans? Alexandria is to poor to split from and when I embargo Mamlukes, I start trading through Astrakahn. Since Astrakahn is also too poor and I cannot embargo a horde, there seems to be no way to set up a new COT. Perhaps I am just missing something.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Play on low agressiveness, nations will almost only attack you if they got CB.

Also i don't agree. About timurids, you just need to make their WE grow high, using scorched earth tactic. And occupying their provinces, as well as winning battles. Then if their leader dies, they got the TSC, and it should kill them. don't peace with them, just kill them along with the TSC, until they brake into thousands of nations. Then you will border small, harmless, non horde persia, along with no more Timurids... hopefully eaten by baluchistan, chorozan, and the third nation, of name i don't remember. Just take the turkish provinces, and then do the turkish missions, and just watch yourself around, remember the good old "civis pacem, para bellum". and prepare to war by annexing all minor neighbours.

 

[Uebergold]

If you are new to Ottomans and hating Timmies you may start in 1441. Check the date for yourself at startscreen and you will see why I said that.

Hordes are not so strong and you are not immediately bordering them anymore + you get instantly a godlike 9-8-8 heir. In case of building a CoT in Thrace: I do not know if it is the perfect solution but I waited for Alexandria to get 800+ value and then immediately build one myself in Constantinople. In general, having a CoT there is pretty good and it will be quite rich. Later on you will also get nice CoTs in Astrakhan, Hormuz and Fars.

If you know how to play Ottomans you will see that they are one of the easier nations.

 

[Chronicler]

I managed to play the Ottomans >_>.

 

[Derahan]

THe Ottomans are not impossible, maybe you are just doing it wrong, as Ottomans i usually expand into Balkans first so i secure a good position there where most countries usually doesnt are influenced by many western italian minor (Excluding Achaea, Knight, Cyprus and Naxos.)

 

[lullelulle]

They really aren't. I'm not even a good player.



You're strong enough to fight off the hordes until your tech outmatches them by far. Your troop types are way better than the rest of the muslim world and the hordes, and holding off Christians landing their troops isn't that hard either. Don't go into naval combat were you can't win, just build a transport navy. Play defensively against the big Christian nations and slowly eat your way into Europe or the middle east.

 

[Pewt]

The Ottomans are pretty easy.

 

[ashalia]

Ottoman is one of the best nations. Change your strategy

 

[RobRoy3]

The Ottomans are pretty easy.

Yeah, for a player to be having so many problems, I suspect you're doing something wrong. Granted they aren't nearly as easy as you'd think they would be (or as they should be), in fact many people find BYZ a bit easier, odd as that sounds. But once you figure them out, you'll probably put them in the boring category.

Make sure you're playing with the latest patch, though. The cascading alliances were a lot worse in earlier versions of DW.

The situation you describe sound like you're either attacking guaranteed countries (CYP? KNI?) and/or have a high Badboy rating, and/or have an army so small/weak that it tempts the AI. You'll still need to be a bit gradual, and opportunistic, as the Ottomans. Don't attack the guaranteed Greek minors until their guaranteeing/allied powers are at war (esp FRA CAS). And don't attack anybody else, until you've got a handle on the hordes; you should be able to get a vassal wall in less than 50 years, but it will take some work. The upside to the hordes is that once you get the initiative, you have ridiculous amounts of BB free conquests ahead of you. MOL, GEO/TRE, ARM/AKK/IRQ are generally fairly easy to get, which will allow you to focus on your missions and/or P.U.-ing some of the arab states (the ones CAS hasn't gobbled up while you've been busy with the hordes).

Until you figure out the tricks, though, they tend to be a fun game. For added spice, engineer a switch to greek/orthodox, become BYZ, and turn history on its ear.

 

[joos]

Naval superiority does not mean anything for the Ottomans since no matter how many times I have destroyed the combined English-Castillian-Portugese-Swedish-Danish-French-Burgundian Fleets they will still have them 100% rebuilt by the time the truce expires so they can all dow me again for no other reason besides "they can." Having a massive carrack fleet with superior seamanship still doesn't help defend the coastline since enemy armies can unload while the fleets are engaging (even if the defending fleet is sitting and waiting in the adjacent sea tile) and since naval battles can last for several weeks before resolving.

I can tell you here what you are doing wrong. As the Ottomans, you want to close the Straits of Messina and the Gulf of Sirt. If you make your navy patrol between these two sea zones during war with the major naval powers of Europe, and if you have a strong navy, you can block their landing parties long before they even reach the Ionian Sea. This is the narrowest sea zone through which all ships of Western Europeans must pass through before reaching your coast.

 

[outcast1104]

I agree with you. Played the Ottomans serval times, sure, they are playable, but its certainly annoying to have some random european countries DoW you everytime GH or Timurids autoDoW you.
I guess the problem is the DoTF CB, which makes the AI, even on low agressiveness, DoW you everytime they see you being embroiled in a war, even tough it is just a horde or something.

 

[Nilspart]

Often its a country like Portugal or Castille dow you. In my recent game they did as quick the truce was gone, but its they aren't a match since they have to fight me in my homeland so i don't think its a problem they dow you, unless you are fighting two front wars against Gh and Timruid

 

[Colombo]

If you are annoyed by those Castilian troops in your territory, try to play a peace, than conquer france (or just lower half of it) and than you can easilly beat castile, when they try to land troops in your mainland.

I did it in my Mamluke->Africa game.

 

[Gpeterse]

They shouldn't be that hard unless you are doing something wrong. The hordes are annoying and you may lose a couple of battles early on but fighting them to a draw is a reasonable outcome even in the early game. While the crusading states can project power to your homeland early there are ways to defeat them. One thing that I found helpful was to take advantage of peaceful time and force vassalize one of the minor naval states in the Med (Sicily seems to work best), then ally them. If you jump in and vassalize them without hurting their navy much they tend to harass the crusading states enough to buy you some time. They also tend to absorb invasions for you. It won't last forever but it buys some time.

Most of the time when someone thinks a nation is 'unplayable' it is really unplayable the way they are playing it or they are not obtaining the success they want as fast and easily as they want. If you want to use a strategy that doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere you could always turn the difficulty down to 'Very Easy'.

 

[TeutoDraeger]

ottomans suffer from stability sickness from the get go. they have a hard time (even player controlled) keeping stability up thanks to jizya and many territories with high stab costs due to wrong culture/religion/both not to mention the infamy you'll incur from conquering your non-core neighbors (not right away but still). later on, due to their size, they can either be the most backward or most advanced nation in the world. it's largely dependent on slider moves. i'll grant you they're not the easiest nation to play and certainly not the best choice for novice or even some seasoned players---they require a certain mindset and huge micromanagement, and that's just not some people's thing.

but.

while i'll grant the problems the ottomans have, at least at the outset of the game, it's entirely possible to circumvent some of the larger issues thus making the smaller ones easier to deal with. for instance, when you declare war, always check for cascading alliances BEFORE YOU CLICK. if there's a cascading alliance in place surrounding a nation you want/have to conquer for a mission or whatever, then TOO BAD. either suck it up and go to war with everyone or wait and hope the alliance breaks down.

stop being so short-sighted. just because you can't conquer everyone in the first 20 years of the game doesn't mean the ottomans are unplayable. take your time, wait for the right opportunity, and strike. it's pretty much common sense. i'm sorry, but i hate it when people complain about stuff like that when it's so easy to avoid. i normally don't bash people for noob questions but honestly, how many times has this been hashed out? if your playing style isn't working with a particular nation, it's 99% of the time NOT the game's fault.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

later on, due to their size, they can either be the most backward or most advanced nation in the world. it's largely dependent on slider moves. as for declaring war, always check for cascading alliances BEFORE YOU CLICK. i'm sorry, but i hate it when people complain about stuff like that when it's so easy to avoid. if there's a cascading alliance in place surrounding a nation you want/have to conquer for a mission or whatever, then TOO BAD. either suck it up and go to war with everyone or wait and hope the alliance breaks down.

Ottoman cascading alliances cant really be avoided, sorry, one problem is that all the christian minors in the area are guaranteed by at least one western european major, while the DotF might jump in everytime. If Castille joins and becomes warleader there is a big chance that they call in France/England/Portugal/Burgundy. The only way to really avoid a war with christian majors is to only dow diplomatically isolated countries whose DotF is in a big war which it is losing (and even then it might join in).

 

[Colombo]

Wait, Jizya? Why annect it?

 

[TeutoDraeger]

Wait, Jizya? Why annect it?

they start with it. sucks, but unless you're willing to mod the game to get rid of it, you're stuck with it til 1821.

Ottoman cascading alliances cant really be avoided, sorry, one problem is that all the christian minors in the area are guaranteed by at least one western european major, while the DotF might jump in everytime. If Castille joins and becomes warleader there is a big chance that they call in France/England/Portugal/Burgundy. The only way to really avoid a war with christian majors is to only dow diplomatically isolated countries whose DotF is in a big war which it is losing (and even then it might join in).

edited my post, but my point stands: there's a real easy way to avoid castille, venice, etc---don't attack catholics right away!

the ottomans have a chain of missions for uniting your cores before even thinking about DoW'ing catholic neighbors. byzantium, candar, karaman, dulkadir, and ramazan should all be higher priorities than venice + her vassals, genoa (for kaffa), achea, cyprus, and the knights. if you're unlucky enough to start with the missions for the balkans/greece, i recommend either restarting, cancelling, or ignoring it altogether. there's NO good reason to go to war with a catholic nation until you unite your cores. castille will intervene unless they're deeply embroiled in north africa, and even then they might join anyway and just send their fleet to wreck yours and plug up the bosporus.

if a catholic nation declares on you, unless castille's allied with them, that's really not a big deal. just keep a big fleet and kill the invaders until you can WP and keep working on your cores (and the timurids if you didn't concede/offer tribute early on). i can't stress enough the importance for getting all your cores. they're free, and they drain your precious prestige as long as you don't control them. prestige is essential for troop morale and and the decision to move your capital to thrace (i think that's the one, either way prestige is important).

again, i'll admit they have some problems, and sometimes s*** does happen, but cascading alliances are so friggin easy to avoid it's just stupid to complain about them.

 

[Ryuujin95]

The Greek minors are easy to handle. Be prepared ahead of time for the DotF, or bait them into a war ahead of time, destroy their navy, then string them along as you attack the minors in sequence. Override the European's SoI on a minor to clear their implied guarantee and attack a month later. Or, if all else fails, use spies to resurrect the Byzantines and curb stomp them.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Uniting the Ottoman Cores(without the one the Timurids own) can be done in under one year, after that it is a matter of stalling the hordes and waiting for disaster to strike. One thing you completely disregard is that often enough countries will just DOW you because you have low War Capacity, then you will become the crusade target and after that every nation dows you as long as your wc stays low and it will stay low because you are at war with 1-3 Hordes for the entire first century or so.
I am not saying that Ottomans are unplayable or even overly difficult, but as the Ottomans you have to live with the fact that you will probably be in constant war against most of Europe. I have played many a successfull OE game before, but sometimes it is hard to get started with conquest due to the constant DoW's you receive from sometimes very random countries (yay a DoW from Saxony who brought in Austria and Hungary).