The decisions to westernize when Wien or Danzig are captured together with the ability to capture capitals without surrounding them first might mean that by 1460s-1480 both Ottomans and Muscovy are western. This together with -33% core creation cost for Ottos and -15% core creation cost and -10% for technology for Muscovy jolts these two nations as primary candidates for WC
Ottomans (1st) and Muscovy (2nd) now best for WC?
- Thread starter Gringovoir
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Separatism has to be 0 to use the decision, so add 30 years to your timeframe estimate.
edit: As Korashy pointed out, this could be reduced to 10 years + integration time if you target Danzig.
edit: As Korashy pointed out, this could be reduced to 10 years + integration time if you target Danzig.
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Ottoman: Wait for poland to conquer danzig -> take danzig from poland, release danzig as vassal -> integrate -> westernize. Should be no nationalism that way and no crazy HRE AE.
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Good catch. I wonder if it's just in Wien and Danzig or everywhere. Hope it's the former.
With the new coring cost reduction nerfs being able to feed Lithuania as Poland is going to be big, so I'd put them above Muscovy at the very least. They're also closer to Danzig.
The three mentioned in the patch notes are Danzig, Wien and Prague. Would be nice if they added Venice and Rome to that list too.
Muscovy certainly got way higher up the list of potential WC countries, but 1480 is too soon. You also need no nationalism in the provinces, that alone is 15 years so it's more like 1465.
Not to mention how long the wars will last with the new fort system... I say that if you westernize before 1500 you are lucky.
Not to mention how long the wars will last with the new fort system... I say that if you westernize before 1500 you are lucky.
Which takes 10 years + the time for integration. And that's if Teutons have already lost provinces since you can't vassalize them due to high base tax. Poland will probably take Danzig if that's the case.
They probably can't get too big before they start to have too high liberty desire?
Danzig tag has a core on Danzig, so you essentially could do it in 10-15 years.
Wouldn't that take a while as muscovy though? First gotta get through novgorod. and with the new forts that could take a bit longer than it used too. Gotta get Neva at the least from them. and just a border with livonian order. And during that time it is extremely likely poland will have already taken danzig.
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The Ottomans always were a top candidate.
I'd still favor any nation that can unleash the HRE vassal swarm. So much less land to conquer, and so much less micromanagement when your vassal swarm can mop up all the small targets automatically. I don't doubt the Ottos power, but I doubt my ability to finish a WC game where I have to do all the work.
I'd still favor any nation that can unleash the HRE vassal swarm. So much less land to conquer, and so much less micromanagement when your vassal swarm can mop up all the small targets automatically. I don't doubt the Ottos power, but I doubt my ability to finish a WC game where I have to do all the work.
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Then you take it from Poland, or you just no CB / attack livonian order which always allies teutonic
How dare you to question the Ryukyu supremacy on doing world conquests with their Sho effect.
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It's not westernization that is the main obstacle for Muscovian WC, but rather getting HRE only through religion shift, which takes maybe even longer while also seriously hindering your expansion rate. You're also missing Burgundian Inheritance :|
Still that is a nice addition. I'll definitely give Muscovy another close look. Especially now that fish provides culture conversion bonus.
Still that is a nice addition. I'll definitely give Muscovy another close look. Especially now that fish provides culture conversion bonus.
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I feel there is something distasteful in being HRE Muscovy
. I would just try to conquer it all.As for culture conversion, stacking religion finisher, muscovy idea, influence-religious policy and fish would be really nice. Perhaps up to 80% culture conversion reduction.
Well, early westernization does save you adm points, but yeah it's not what makes or breaks WC for Ottoman or Eastern tech.