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Norrefeldt said:
you already have 36000 soldiers that remained even without there families, 5720 households does not represent 5720, it mostly likely represents an extra 20000
Norrefeldt said:
Cyprus got independence to have their own nation , not merge with Greece. They would officially be called cypriots as the UN does today.
Not that I care anyway. Just to set the record straight.
Yasko said:
Yes , fair enough . But the question is , in 1571 there were more turks in cyprus than there were cypriots.
Since the new version is coming along very soon and this is submitted, it needs to be settled. Can you present any basis for this claim?
I mean, really what is the point of this event then? Seems like unnecessary fluff without that.
By the way, I'll also state again that it is imperative that you include IDs for your events. It takes the compiler longer if he/(I guess a she, although we don't have many of those
) has to fiddle around finding IDs. Therefore, keep the IDs you used to test the events, or alternatively, if you used IDs not in the assigned ranges, re-assign them and test to make sure there are no conflicts before making a submission. Thank you.
(I wonder if this point should be in the first post of the Submissions thread)
By the way, I'll also state again that it is imperative that you include IDs for your events. It takes the compiler longer if he/(I guess a she, although we don't have many of those
) has to fiddle around finding IDs. Therefore, keep the IDs you used to test the events, or alternatively, if you used IDs not in the assigned ranges, re-assign them and test to make sure there are no conflicts before making a submission. Thank you. (I wonder if this point should be in the first post of the Submissions thread)
Good idea.
People should submit with ID's, and ask me if they are uncertain of what ID to use. Then that work will be done in time for submission.
People should submit with ID's, and ask me if they are uncertain of what ID to use. Then that work will be done in time for submission.
chegitz guevara said:
Once you expell all the latins and then delete the 20000 cypriots who were slaughter, because they were either nobles and/or rich merchants and traders. then the population was below 50000.
reference is a book called "the mediterranean" , 2 vol set, deals with the med and all nations within it at the time of Philip 2 .
Has population, commerce etc
eg. france had the most with 16 mil, then Italy with 13 , spain with 8, por wih 1
I never write the descriptions anymore , I just copy and paste from web sources.
So, 50,000 Cypriots + 20,000 Turks, means the Cypriots were still in the majority.
chegitz guevara said:
Where you get these figures from, ??
20,000 from households excluding the troops. Households represent non military.
the military stayed there. Also these migrations of turkmen that went to cyprus continued until 1720.
Toio said:
The number of Turkish immigrants in Cyprus is a highly controversial issue given the political situation in Cyprus. You can find all sort of numbers going to the extremes from both sides. It is all complicated by lesser known facts:
- Not all catholics were expelled from the island. This is probably a myth. The catholic community became nevertheless extremely small and centered at Larnaca. Catholics continued migrating in the years after, and a large group went to Malta.
- A significant number of Armenians and Albanians were present and remained in the island with a status similar to Orthodox.
- The inmmigration under Ottoman rule was not of 100% Muslim Turkish, either. Part of the immigrants were neither Turkish, nor Muslims. The Ottomans relocated their non-Muslim subjects quite easily. As of today it would be speculative to say how many Muslims arrived to Cyprus, althought it is clear that the majority must have been Muslims.
- Many of the conversions to Muslim religion, perhaps the majority were of cryptochristians, whose sons were baptised and circumcised, and given a Muslim name and a Christian name. They were only nominally Muslims and were called linobambaki after a cloth with two sides.
- Maronites, who were present in significant numbers, remained in the island, but they were practically driven to extinction by both Ottomans and Orthodox. They were probably one of the main sources of conversions and cryptoconversions, as their situation was the worse by far.
The population of Cyprus at the time of the conquest is estimated at 150,000. After the conquest the number seems to have reduced to about 120-125,000. The consensus is that about 20,000 immigrants were brought. Turkish sources tend to raise that number to 30,000. It seems that the island could support at that time about 150,000 people and that the population was brought back to about that number. After terrible famines and earthquakes, deathtoll and emigration reduced the number of inhabitants to about 50,000 or less. The population did not recover until the second half of the XIX century, which gives an idea about the difficult situation in Cyprus.
Regarding your event: Cyprus was never Muslim majority. In general a ratio of about 4:1 Christians to Muslims appears to have been maintained for the entire period. This webpage is from a Turkish site, so they have no reason to reduce the number of Turkish immigrants or Muslims in the island. Quite the opposite. So they should be considered an upper limit.
Regarding the numbers of population increase, I consider them to be way off. You must remember that the population number in EU2 refers to the population in the capital city, not in the province. The population in Famagusta at the beginning of the game is given at 10,000, less than 10% the total population. If we accept that the immigration was of 20,000, and for the most part relocated in the countryside, then the population increase (and decrease in other places) should be of 1000, or at the most 1500.
EDIT the migrations did not continue until 1720. Cyprus soon became one of the worst places where you could live. The conditions were apalling, famines were almost constant and the population plummeted, both Christians and Muslims. The tax oppression was also felt by both populations. You had to be out of your mind to migrate to Cyprus. Actually people were leaving Cyprus all the time. Orthodox to Greece and Muslims to Asia Minor.
Last edited:
fodoron
I do not know where you got you info from but here is mine.
http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/people/cypturks/
http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/people/cypturks/selim.html
second is selim agreement to migrate peoples to cyprus.
Below is a huge document which I state I have, its 4 pages, but he is a snippit for you. I bolded the relevent info.
Byzantine administration came to an end in 1211, with the establishment of the Lusignan dynasty. As the last refuge of western nobility in
the Levant (Collenberg 1982:72-3), the Lusignan kingdom (1192-1489) became increasingly isolated from metropolitan France and western customs (Richard 1962:11). Isolation from the centres of political decision-making continued as the island passed from Venetian (1489-1571) to Ottoman rule (1571-1878), subsequently coming under British administration, with isolation now realised as exoticisation of the islanders by the newly-arrived Brits (Herzfeld 1987:73-4).
5.2 Weak network ties
In historical terms, weak network ties result from urbanisation and/ or massive influx of immigrants (Tuten 2003:52,82,45). Urban establishments/towns are not found on Cyprus before the Lusignan period. Rather, the formation of an urban bourgeoisie and development of the urban centres of the island ... were among the most important achievements of the Lusignan regime (Papadopoullos 1995:765). The institutional organisation of the Lusignan kingdom was greatly influenced by that of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, with the nobility and the non-noble Frankish burgesses living in the towns alongside the non-Frankish indigenous population (Collenberg 1982:73-4). Initially distrustful of the locals, the aristocracy nevertheless needed to
consolidate its rule and communicate with the labouring classes. Privileges known as bourgeoisies were granted to inhabitants of the cities, merchants and artisans. By the 14thc., the new class of bourgeois also participated in political decision-making (Arbel 1986:204).
Furthermore, the demographic superiority of the indigenous population was actively mitigated by attracting islamic settlers from Syria and Palestine with the promise of land, liberties and other privileges (Papadopoullos 1993:19). Waves of refugees from the Holy lands continued to arrive throughout the 13thc., while under Venetian rule a deliberate policy of re-populating the newly-acquired colony encouraged subjects of the Serenissima, from Italy, Balkans and Greece (the Peloponnese and Corfu), as well as Christians from Syria, to relocate to the island (Arbel 1984:186-7).
The natural meeting place of these foreign settlers and the newly-formed local urban strata were the towns, where the gradual enfranchisement initially of a substantial servile population, and later of numerous rural land-labourers, produced an association of personal freedom with permanent town-dwelling . Thus, alongside the old dichotomy between feudal Western and Byzantine Eastern, a new dichotomy emerged between the town, with its permanent and free inhabitants, enjoying particular privileges and participating ... in ... political life; and ... rural society, comprising serfs and free tenants, ... unable to enjoy urban privileges and ... barred from taking any part whatsoever in the public life of the kingdom (Arbel 1986:204).
The latter dichotomy persisted under subsequent regimes. Such rift separated urban and rural populations during the Ottoman conquest (1570/71) that wholesale war broke out, with the peasants receiving the Ottomans as liberators, and the aristocracy and urban bourgeoisie being persecuted (Kyrris 1984, 1988). When the Latin faith was officially banned and non-indigenous members of the higher strata were faced with a choice: either be Hellenised and join the new secular Greek elite, or be Islamised. By introducing the Muslim-Greek dichotomy, the Ottoman regime brought about a novel weakening of the orthodox religion within the rural establishment.
At the same time, the dichotomy between rural and urban populations persisted. The Turks being almost exclusively involved in administration, urban populations became predominantly Turkish, with Greeks concentrated in the countryside.
During the middle period of the Lusignan kingdom (1291-1374), Hellenisation of the higher strata on all levels of private and public life (Nikolaou-Konnari 1993:34,43) produced a common Cypriot identity, not identical in every respect to either of the Greek Byzantine and Franco-Levantine original ones.
After the Frankish conquest, the majority of the population, especially in rural areas (80- 85% under Venetian rule, Arbel 1984) continued to be Orthodox and Greek-speaking. Their language would have been some form of the Cypriot dialect, the first modern dialect to appear in its distinctive modern guise (Horrocks 1997:284) following its early detachment from the
Byzantine core (7thc. onwards). On the other hand, with an ethnic composition of 50% French or Flemish, 25% Provencal, 10% Norman, and 15% Italian (Papadopoullos 1995:792), the newlyarrived aristocracy had also taken up the ways of the Levant in several respects, including customs and the language (Richard 1962:75,130). By 1350, the French of Cyprus, a direct
descendent of the French of Terra Santa, showed many dialectal features, including italianisms and Greek loanwords (Richard 1983:xxix; 1962:15).
From 1350 onwards, a steady decline in numbers compelled the Frankish aristocracy to open its ranks to the indigenous Greeks (Papadopoullos 1995:769). Greek aristocracy is reported in 1367, while marriages between Franks and locals before 1400.
so what we have is
1. cyprus never had towns before the franks arrived.
2. with a steady influx of migrants in the frankish and venetian periods be them catholic or moslems would have diluted the othodox fate.
3. the moslem turkls ruled the towns.
Now if the EU2 is based on town population , then Cyprus was 100% moslem when the turks were there. But if that is not the cast then we can decide what is best for the game.
I leave the choice to the HC.
note : the event is true and not fabricated.
I do not know where you got you info from but here is mine.
http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/people/cypturks/
http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/people/cypturks/selim.html
second is selim agreement to migrate peoples to cyprus.
Below is a huge document which I state I have, its 4 pages, but he is a snippit for you. I bolded the relevent info.
Byzantine administration came to an end in 1211, with the establishment of the Lusignan dynasty. As the last refuge of western nobility in
the Levant (Collenberg 1982:72-3), the Lusignan kingdom (1192-1489) became increasingly isolated from metropolitan France and western customs (Richard 1962:11). Isolation from the centres of political decision-making continued as the island passed from Venetian (1489-1571) to Ottoman rule (1571-1878), subsequently coming under British administration, with isolation now realised as exoticisation of the islanders by the newly-arrived Brits (Herzfeld 1987:73-4).
5.2 Weak network ties
In historical terms, weak network ties result from urbanisation and/ or massive influx of immigrants (Tuten 2003:52,82,45). Urban establishments/towns are not found on Cyprus before the Lusignan period. Rather, the formation of an urban bourgeoisie and development of the urban centres of the island ... were among the most important achievements of the Lusignan regime (Papadopoullos 1995:765). The institutional organisation of the Lusignan kingdom was greatly influenced by that of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, with the nobility and the non-noble Frankish burgesses living in the towns alongside the non-Frankish indigenous population (Collenberg 1982:73-4). Initially distrustful of the locals, the aristocracy nevertheless needed to
consolidate its rule and communicate with the labouring classes. Privileges known as bourgeoisies were granted to inhabitants of the cities, merchants and artisans. By the 14thc., the new class of bourgeois also participated in political decision-making (Arbel 1986:204).
Furthermore, the demographic superiority of the indigenous population was actively mitigated by attracting islamic settlers from Syria and Palestine with the promise of land, liberties and other privileges (Papadopoullos 1993:19). Waves of refugees from the Holy lands continued to arrive throughout the 13thc., while under Venetian rule a deliberate policy of re-populating the newly-acquired colony encouraged subjects of the Serenissima, from Italy, Balkans and Greece (the Peloponnese and Corfu), as well as Christians from Syria, to relocate to the island (Arbel 1984:186-7).
The natural meeting place of these foreign settlers and the newly-formed local urban strata were the towns, where the gradual enfranchisement initially of a substantial servile population, and later of numerous rural land-labourers, produced an association of personal freedom with permanent town-dwelling . Thus, alongside the old dichotomy between feudal Western and Byzantine Eastern, a new dichotomy emerged between the town, with its permanent and free inhabitants, enjoying particular privileges and participating ... in ... political life; and ... rural society, comprising serfs and free tenants, ... unable to enjoy urban privileges and ... barred from taking any part whatsoever in the public life of the kingdom (Arbel 1986:204).
The latter dichotomy persisted under subsequent regimes. Such rift separated urban and rural populations during the Ottoman conquest (1570/71) that wholesale war broke out, with the peasants receiving the Ottomans as liberators, and the aristocracy and urban bourgeoisie being persecuted (Kyrris 1984, 1988). When the Latin faith was officially banned and non-indigenous members of the higher strata were faced with a choice: either be Hellenised and join the new secular Greek elite, or be Islamised. By introducing the Muslim-Greek dichotomy, the Ottoman regime brought about a novel weakening of the orthodox religion within the rural establishment.
At the same time, the dichotomy between rural and urban populations persisted. The Turks being almost exclusively involved in administration, urban populations became predominantly Turkish, with Greeks concentrated in the countryside.
During the middle period of the Lusignan kingdom (1291-1374), Hellenisation of the higher strata on all levels of private and public life (Nikolaou-Konnari 1993:34,43) produced a common Cypriot identity, not identical in every respect to either of the Greek Byzantine and Franco-Levantine original ones.
After the Frankish conquest, the majority of the population, especially in rural areas (80- 85% under Venetian rule, Arbel 1984) continued to be Orthodox and Greek-speaking. Their language would have been some form of the Cypriot dialect, the first modern dialect to appear in its distinctive modern guise (Horrocks 1997:284) following its early detachment from the
Byzantine core (7thc. onwards). On the other hand, with an ethnic composition of 50% French or Flemish, 25% Provencal, 10% Norman, and 15% Italian (Papadopoullos 1995:792), the newlyarrived aristocracy had also taken up the ways of the Levant in several respects, including customs and the language (Richard 1962:75,130). By 1350, the French of Cyprus, a direct
descendent of the French of Terra Santa, showed many dialectal features, including italianisms and Greek loanwords (Richard 1983:xxix; 1962:15).
From 1350 onwards, a steady decline in numbers compelled the Frankish aristocracy to open its ranks to the indigenous Greeks (Papadopoullos 1995:769). Greek aristocracy is reported in 1367, while marriages between Franks and locals before 1400.
so what we have is
1. cyprus never had towns before the franks arrived.
2. with a steady influx of migrants in the frankish and venetian periods be them catholic or moslems would have diluted the othodox fate.
3. the moslem turkls ruled the towns.
Now if the EU2 is based on town population , then Cyprus was 100% moslem when the turks were there. But if that is not the cast then we can decide what is best for the game.
I leave the choice to the HC.
note : the event is true and not fabricated.
Very interesting article Toio.
I basically draw the same conclusions as you do.
The sproblem of town population versus rural population is present in some Balkan provinces where the Germans were in majority in the cities, but were few in the countryside. Since the rural populaion is much larger we have let that decide what is the culture/faith of a province there.
I basically draw the same conclusions as you do.
The sproblem of town population versus rural population is present in some Balkan provinces where the Germans were in majority in the cities, but were few in the countryside. Since the rural populaion is much larger we have let that decide what is the culture/faith of a province there.
Toio said:
Highly disputable for an island with over 5,000 years of history and important arqueological rests (Salamis and Paphos come to mind). Depends on your definition of city. And is irrelevant for EU2.
Toio said:
Not necessarily. The island was highly populated and the immigration constituted a small percentage of the population. Most of the island catholics of levant origin (Syrians, Armenians and Maronites) came to the island before EU2 period, yet the island was still mostly Orthodox in nature. Franks and Venetians were relatively very few, but constituted the upper class.
Toio said:
Even if Famagusta was 100% Moslem (and it wasn't by far), that still leaves several other cities and the whole countryside as majoritarily Orthodox. In Cyprus the countryside was segregated, so some villages were Maronites (a branch of Catholics followers of St. Maron), some Albanian, some Armenian, and the immense majority were Greek Orthodox. This was the result of frequent religious strifes. While many Ottoman soldiers and administrators remained in the cities, the majority of the Muslim immigrants went to repopulate the countriside Catholic villages that had been left empty by the anti-Catholic prosecution.
While the population number in EU2 refers to the city where the improvements are built, EU2 is basically a game of provinces. Certainly the religion refers to the province, and not to the city. Otherwise it does not make sense.
Toio said:
I don't understand this. I don't know of anybody that has made an event out of nowhere except for fantasy. The important question is if a historic event is significant enough to be included, and if so, if the event accurately represents what happened to our best knowledge. Sometimes you can include a plausible non-historical option_b to spice-up the game.
I don't consider your proposed event to be very significant. Migrations happen all the time, sometimes spontaneously, sometimes chartered, sometimes by decree. You are not finding much support to your theory of the changing of religion, just because for a controversial issue like that you found an authort that claims it did happen. You only have to look at Cyprus today to see that it is majoritarily Orthodox, and it has been like that since it was Christianized. The Ottomans were not very good at converting Orthodox because the Millet system was good enough to them.
For your event to be correct, the increase in population should be reduced to 1000-1500, and the conversion eliminated. That makes the event not very significant. I think it is not worth it to include it, but I will not oppose it in those terms.
Norrefeldt said:
In regards to population, then it is open to change.
If I produce evidence for an event and someone does not and he takes predence over mine without any semblence of saying this will ruin the game because blah, blah instead of saying i do not like it, then I am wasting my time in even writing events because every one will be shot down.
How can he write it off without a valid reason????????
Now maybe if I do not produce any net evidence and write something that I have read , it might be accepted
Toio said:In regards to population, then it is open to change.
If I produce evidence for an event and someone does not and he takes predence over mine without any semblence of saying this will ruin the game because blah, blah instead of saying i do not like it, then I am wasting my time in even writing events because every one will be shot down.
How can he write it off without a valid reason????????
Now maybe if I do not produce any net evidence and write something that I have read , it might be accepted
Doros states that there were after the conquest 20,000 odd Turkish settlers (Doros, 1955, 262). In this he supports Kyprianos (1788).
Turkish authors tend to raise those numbers. Cengiz Orhonlu, based on archival research indicates that 4,000 soldiers were convinced to remain and settle after the conquest (Orhonlu 1971,100). He also claims that 8,000 families were brought in the first decade, when most of the immigration took place (Orhonlu 1971, 76-77).
Regarding the religion of the immigrants there is absolutely no data. All the soldiers had to be Muslims, but it is unreasonable to suppose that all the immigrants were Muslims when it is known that some came from Greece and Albania. The majority were probably Anatolian Turks.
The issue of religion is further complicated by the particularity of the linobambakoi. Michel (1908, 755) narrates the following situation: "At a remote village it has happened that a Greek bishop arrived in the morning, and all the flock attended to pay their respects. Towards evening a Turkish official happened to arrive, and the villagers hastened to entertain him hospitably, as faithful Mohammedans!"
The numbers that you provide from a Northern Cyprus webpage sound like propaganda. They are disputed by international authors and Turkish scholars alike, as well as common sense for such small island inhabited by peasants favorables to the Ottoman takeover, once peace was reached with Venice in 1573.
"Following the defeat of the Venetians in 1571, Lala Mustafa Pasha, the Turkish Commander of the land forces in Cyprus, chose, before departing for Istanbul, 12,000 foot soldiers to remain on the island for the formation of the defensive garrison of Famagusta, Nicosia and Kyrenia. In addition, he distributed 4,000 cavalry men among the localities of Les Salines (Larnaca), Limassol, Paphos, Kyrenia, and elsewhere. The military forces were complemented by an additional 20,000 decommissioned soldiers and 2,000 cavalry remaining as colonists. These people as a whole formed the original nucleus of the fledgling Turkish-Cypriot community whose members were of Turkish origin, and by the firman (decree) of Sultan Selim II they were given fiefs for the provision of their homes, and sustenance. Steps were also taken to assist all soldiers with dependents on the mainland to bring their wives and children to Cyprus."
You see, this has a trick. It speaks of 1571, when the Ottoman Empire was still at war with the Holy league and a landing of Venetians and Spanish in Cyprus could not be ruled out. After the peace of 1573, the soldiers were needed elsewhere. In fact, Purcell (1969, 165), defends that the heavy loses sustained during the war of Cyprus by the Ottoman army were significant enough to have relieved pressure on Central Europe for another 20 years. So clearly the army was needed elsewere after the war, and Cyprus was an extremely safe place, that required very little garrison. The 20,000 decomissioned soldiers is a number that has been around for some time, but nobody has provided any grounds for it. Orhonlu's archival research have reduced that number to 4,000.
Also, I remind you of the Turkish web page from the EGE university that I provided above. I would lend more credit to it that to a webpage from the unrecognized Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
"At the same time a number of soldiers, and craftsmen from Anatolia, were settled on the island. Apart from a reservation within the walls of Famagusta, there was no strategic placement of these immigrants, and they were fairly evenly distributed around the island. The policy was energetically pursued until about 30,000 Muslim Turks had been settled on the island amongst a population of perhaps 150,000 Greek-Cypriots. This proportion, around, 1:5, is still true today."
These numbers are in agreement with most serious authors on the issue, both Turkish and international.
If you don't want to waste your time writing events that are finally not implemented, and even more importantly don't waste ours having to expend time looking for our sources, and writing long texts defending what is commonly accepted, I suggest you buy at least a couple of good history books about what you are interested, and take the effort to read them, and look for really important events that shaped history. Good history books, unlike webpages, have lots of notes and bibliography, and people risk their reputations by publishing them. If you want to swim against what is currently accepted by modern historians, then you will have to spend years doing research and providing data before you can convince the scientific community that you are right and they are wrong. Webpages can be useful, and they can be showed to others, but you should not trust what you read in them, unless you can back it up with more trustable sources. I also caution you about chosing controversial issues because then the writers are many times pursuing agendas more than the truth.
Your event was rejected because nobody believed it. Before, during and after the Ottomans, Cyprus was and is majoritarily Orthodox. This is an undisputed fact except by extremists. The presence or absence of your event will not ruin the game, but the Ottomans have Greek culture so far, so in the game they can convert Cyprus a lot easier than in real history.
Toio, the article you posted above, which I trust more than the web pages, only says that the urban populations (in the 16th century a small part of total population) was predominantly Turkish/Muslim. Since we follow overall majority when settling religion and culture, this isn't enough.