Toio

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fodoron and Norrefelt

Like I said before, it a HC decision to incorporate an event.
And as I stated before, there is no justification on a refussal based on game considerations , but based on some written comments by fodoron. Be the fact that I have supplied net sites, it is not enough.

I can direct you to the Venetian Archives, but you cannot read Venetian while I can, so to correct your facts and state what are the correct facts based on the Venetian bailo who was there is:

1. Nicosia was the Venetian capital of Cyprus and famagusta was the military base. Population of Nicosia was 19000, famagusta 4000.

2. The total population of Cyprus in 1570 was 80,000 (excuding the military).

3. The Church was irrevant in Cyprus be it catholic or orthodox as the Venetian practice was to deport all senior religious people from any lands/towns held by Venice.

4. The Greek elite selected a minor priest who would be responsible for a census count in rural areas. (Venetian practice in all their holdings , as basically the priest where more likely to know how to read and write.)

5. The corner (Cornaro)family owned over half the farmable lands in Cyprus and was producing wines and cotton. He was one of the richest men in europe at that time. So the amount of land viable for other farming was small.

To sum up: Let me know if I am wasting my time in writing events if they will be refused based on some arguements which are not game based.

I am in the process of writing the Italian wars ( have 20 events so far) , let me know if this is a fruitless enterprise.

regards, and no hard feelings, I think we can discuss these issues like men. :)
 

Norrefeldt

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If the population of Cyprus was 80.000 (disputed by Turkish university sources who are interested in a low number) in 1570, and the highest figure for the immigrants is 30.000 of mostly muslim faith. That would give a Muslim vs Christian rate of between 3:8 or 1:5, depending on the initial population. We falsely assume all the immigrants are Muslim for the sake of simplicity.

There are a lot of figures here, and I might have missed something. If not, what is the case (in numbers) of a Muslim majority?

I cannot comment on your Italian Wars event, since I have not seen them.
 
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unmerged(29041)

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Norrefeldt said:
If the population of Cyprus was 80.000 (disputed by Turkish university sources who are interested in a low number) in 1570, and the highest figure for the immigrants is 30.000 of mostly muslim faith. That would give a Muslim vs Christian rate of between 3:8 or 1:5, depending on the initial population. We falsely assume all the immigrants are Muslim for the sake of simplicity.

There are a lot of figures here, and I might have missed something. If not, what is the case (in numbers) of a Muslim majority?

I cannot comment on your Italian Wars event, since I have not seen them.

Actually the number was clearly higher than 80,000. The Franks and Venetians were always a small percentage of the population. At the siege of Nicosia, the deathtoll for the defenders was put at 20,000. Since the Venetian defense was split between Nicosia and Famagusta, and in Famagusta there were 5,000 Venetians, we can safely asume that the majority of the 15,000 other victims were Cypriots. There were also other cities, like Paphos, Kyrenia and Larnaca. However the immense majority of Cypriots lived in villages in the countryside, as they were peasant serfs. That clearly indicates that the number of Cypriots was much higher than 80,000.

The accepted number is 150,000. You can see it in a lot of places. For example here, where it says:
"The takeover by the Ottoman Empire in 1571 was largely welcomed by the local population who had to some extent collaborated with the invaders, and who anticipated changes for the better. To begin with, their hopes were justified. The hated Latin church was uprooted, with many churches being converted into mosques, and the Orthodox church was restored to dominance. The feudal system was abolished, and the former serfs could now own and inherit land.
The population at this time, according to an offical census, was 150,000. In addition there were also some 30,000 Turkish settlers, who were granted land by the Sultan, and changed the demographic nature of the island. In 1641, with plague following close on the heels of famine, the total population had plummeted to 25,000."

I have seen this numbers over and over, both in the net and in academic or historic sources, with variations in the range of 120,000-150,000, and 20,000-30,000 respectively. This are the accepted numbers, and this are the ones that should be used for EU2, unless we have a reason to rewrite history.

The crisis of 1641, when crops had failed due to locust plagues and drought for several years, and several earthquakes had hit the island, causing a terrible famine followed by plague, was really disastrous. Besides a huge deathtoll, it created a massive migration depopulating the island by 80%, reducing it to a wasteland, without much tax value. This historic event is a lot more important for the EU2 period, that the Turkish immigration, that did not change the character of the island until the nationalistic conflicts of the post-EU2 times.
 
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unmerged(29041)

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It's been a long time since I proposed the Janissary events. But they required thorough testing about their effect in the game with all the modifications introduced to them by the suggestions in this thread. Along the way since my early tests before I proposed them, I have learnt a lot about military technology advancement in EU2. I am presenting here some results of the testing with the final versions. If you want to review the events, they are posted in this thread, starting in post 26, and ending in post 116.

This game was played as Genoa in Very hard/Coward, with AGCEEP 1.37, with the rules of not expanding in Europe beyond Liguria and Corsica, and not being the technology leader to avoid compromising the results through the neighbor bonus. This was achieved by running an inflation of over 50%.

The condition for the test required that all the majors to be compared (TUR, HAB, FRA, SPA, ENG and RUS) were reasonably well formed by 1539, and specifically that the Ottomans were succesful in their early expansion. This was achieved at the second try, as in the first game the Ottomans stalled due to an important early defeat. 1539 is the date of the first of my Janissary events. The savegame of 1539 was then played with or without the Janissary events to assess their impact. The situation in 1539 is the following:

1539base.jpg


The lack of Mameluck take over is very normal, as it usually does not take place around the historic date (1517). But once a situation like the one in the map is established, their fall usually takes place before the late 1500s, as it happened in my test around 1550.

The game was then split in two, with the only difference of the Janissary events proposed by me being present or absent in the Ottoman file. A rule was also enforced that TUR had to always choose option A, however they did always choose it. The game was saved every 2-5 years, and restarted every 15-20 years or less. Although played till the end, the results are presented only until 1800, because by then someone reaches technology 60. No significant changes took place between 1800 and 1820.

This is the map situation of the standard 1.37, without Janissary events, game by 1800:

1800minus.jpg


And this is a graph representing the Land technological advance of the nations compared:

Graphminus.jpg


I will only make comments in regard to the object of the analysis:

1) As soon as differences in technology start to appear at the end of the XV century, TUR takes the lead and keeps it all the way to around 1720, despite being shifted to the Muslim technology group in 1615.
2) They keep between the most advanced nations until around 1760, when they start to fall towards the intermediate group of Latins. However by 1800 they are still well above many Latin nations, and only slightly behind the World leaders, FRA and HAB

Now let's see what happens when the game is played with the proposed events. This is the map in 1800:

1800plus.jpg


And this is the Land technology graph:

Graphplus.jpg


1) TUR is the World leader only until around 1575. It was shifted to the Muslim technological group in 1540.
2) By 1630 it has joined the main group of Latin nations and keeps on pair with the Latins until around 1720.
3) TUR remains with the Low Latins up until around 1780, while the High Latins take off.
4) It is only around 1800 when TUR starts to show a significant delay.

In conclusion, I will say that the new chain of Ottoman events proposed by me:
  • Reflects better the historical Land military technology of the Ottomans compared with the previous situation.
  • Does not interfere with the possibilities of the Ottomans achieving their expansion because it only affects the Ottomans when that expansion should be completed.
  • Does not provoke a collapse of the empire, and in fact prevents the Ottomans from continuing their expansion near the end of the game.
  • Introduces to the player some of the events that accompanied the Ottoman decline.

I would also like to comment on two things that have surprised me:
-Anything we do to the technology usually has a very delayed effect.
-The bigger the country the better the technology. I refer only to size within national boundaries, as widespread undiscriminated colonization has a very negative impact on technology. This is clearly seen with Russia or England, but it is also true for the Ottomans or France. The French wars of religion cause a big technological depression in France because of the size reduction.
 
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almoravid

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Russia then probably needs to shift to latin earlier. In 1800, Russia needs to be on par with the leaders.

What were Prussia and Sweden?
 

unmerged(29041)

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almoravid said:
Russia then probably needs to shift to latin earlier. In 1800, Russia needs to be on par with the leaders.

What were Prussia and Sweden?
My opinion is that Austria needs to be lowered, not the rest increased, however we can open a new Technology discussion. I would rather keep this thread focused on the Ottomans between 1520 and 1820.
 

Norrefeldt

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Very good tests!

(OT: I would like to know more of your Genoa game, since I have started playing them in 1.38 with the same house rules :D (no European expansion) but only reached 1501 so far. Haven't played them since I made the events a few years ago. I lost Kerch right after it lost its COT. I think my stats are Land/Naval 5, infra/trade 4, income 23d, with Morrocco as vassal, two TPs and a colony in Luanda. I feel I could have played much more aggressivly and would like some inspiration, even if I have been in around 8 wars for money so far.)
 

Norrefeldt

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I haven't checked, but does the entire event package comply with the DP setting you agreed on in post 66? I had a quick glance again (and will certainly try to nitpick a bit more later :D), and have two comments. In "Agricultural crisis", what about having some of the not certain Ottoman provinces removed, replaced by random ones? While it might reduce the historical outcome some, it makes it harder to exploit, giving OE yet another reason to not go for the Balkans. Some option texts, where there are more than one option have '.' in them. The displayed log text will then look something like:
"Ottomans went with Option a text. in The new event."
Not good.
 
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unmerged(29041)

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Norrefeldt said:
I haven't checked, but does the entire event package comply with the DP setting you agreed on in post 66? I had a quick glance again (and will certainly try to nitpick a bit more later :D), and have two comments. In 2Agricultural crisis", what about having some of the not certain Ottoman provinces removed, replaced by random ones? While it might reduce the historical outcome some, it makes it harder to exploit, giving OE yet another reason to not go for the Balkans. Some option texts, where there are more than one option have '.' in them. The displayed log text will then look something like:
"Ottomans went with Option a text. in The new event."
Not good.

The package is the last agreed version and it does comply with the DP settings discussed. It is quite different from the first proposal and that is why I had to repeat all the tests. It has been so long that I don't remember if the events posted are the latest ones. Probably they are, but for convenience I am going to repost the whole set in one post to make it easier to review and submit it.

OT: My Genoa game was terribly boring as I was prevented from doing much. I allied to Milan early on to prevent them from attacking me, and later to Spain, by event. I only participated in alliance wars to prevent ahistoric results when my side was losing more than it should, and mainly to recover allied provinces, as I did not want to be granted war spoils. I also lost Kerch after it lost the CoT, and once I saw I was pulling ahead in technology, I started minting like crazy to have inflation stopping me. I only did very late colonization in weird places, like the Siberian coast, North American interior and Australia, that do not affect the game. I do not look forward to do more testing like this one.
 

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This is the final version of the Janissay series of events.

Code:
# Janissary decadence I #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301104
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301104"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301104"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = february year = 1540 }

	action_a ={ # Seed of destruction
		name = "ACTIONNAME301104A"
		command = { type = land value = -2500 }
		command = { type = naval value = -500 }
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = technology which = muslim }
		command = { type = inf which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301116 } # Janissary decadence VIIb
	}
	action_b ={ # A way out
		name = "ACTIONNAME301104B"
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -2 } # small janissary
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 301115 } # punishment for going against the tide
	}
}
EVENTNAME301104;Muslims admitted to the Janissary;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301104;The janissaries (from Yani Ceri or new army) were the elite of the Ottoman army. They were recruited as children from the Christians, from raid prisoners and through the devshirmeh, a children tax levy imposed on the Christian subjects. Their training was very hard and their quality outstanding. After the first revolt of the janissaries in 1449 they started to acquire power and prestige and some muslims found the way for their sons to be admitted. After the great wars of Selim and Suleyman, muslims started to be admitted openly to increase the size of the Janissary beyond what the devshirmeh could provide. This apparently innocuous measure changed the peculiar status of the Janissary breaking the balance of power in their favor. The slow decadence of the Janissary was only one of the factors in the Ottoman decline, but a fine ruler could steer the Empire even if he takes the historical decisions.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301104B;Better keep the elite corps small and under control;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301104A;More janissaries are surely better for the country;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Against the tide #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301115
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301115"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301115"
	style = 1

	action_a ={ # Seed of destruction
		name = "ACTIONNAME301115A"
		command = { type = land value = -2500 }
		command = { type = naval value = -500 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = technology which = muslim }
		command = { type = inf which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301116 } # Janissary decadence VIIb
	}
	action_b ={ # A way out
		name = "ACTIONNAME301115B"
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 36 value = 4 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301106 } # Janissary decadence II
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301111 } # Janissary decadence V
	}
}
EVENTNAME301115;Muslim uproar for the closure of the Janissary;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301115;The decision to close the Janissary to muslims has proven to be wildly impopular. Both religious class and the society at large are contesting it. The religious tolerance and modern views of the ruling class are not understood by the uneducated masses. If we persist in our reformation ideas we will face stern resistance.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301115B;The sultan decisions shall not be resisted;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301115A;We have reconsidered our previous decision;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Timar crisis #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301105
	trigger = {
		AND = {
			owned = { province = 354 data = -1 } # Banat
			owned = { province = 324 data = -1 } # Maros
		}
		NOT = { OR = {
			owned = { province = 326 data = -1 } # Presburg
			owned = { province = 529 data = -1 } # Tabaristan
		} }
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301105"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301105"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1550 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1590 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301105A"
		command = { type = land value = -2500 }
		command = { type = naval value = -500 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301105;Timar crisis;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301105;The lands gained through conquest belonged to the sultan, and they were assigned to soldiers according to the timar system. The timariots could enjoy the land and its peasants as serfs for life, but both lands and serfs reverted to the sultan at their death. The timariots were responsible for production and tax collection, and had to provide also soldiers for the sultan’s army. This system proved to be a great source of income and an incentive for new conquests. But by 1550 the timar system entered a crisis. Lack of new conquests from the Christians and a population boom from 12 to 22 million, strained the resources increasing unemployment and dropping wages, while new taxes were imposed to support the huge military expenses. Timars became less productive, abandoned by the peasants, or converted into hereditary chiftliks (large private estates made out of Timar land). The loss of power by the impoverished Turkish nobility and their sipahi cavalry left the janissaries as the main force.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301105A;We need constant conquests!;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Janissary decadence II #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301106
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301106"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301106"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = august year = 1566 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301106A"
		command = { type = land value = -5000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301106;Janissaries allowed to marry;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301106;The admittance of muslims into the Janissary brought an unexpected problem as part of them were married. The restrictions to marry became more lax and finally the janissaries were able to extract from Selim II a general permission to all janissaries to marry. The janissaries, now with families to take care of, lost a great deal of warrior ardour. Their cost also raised greatly, as their adequate salary became insufficient to support a family. More problems followed as the janissaries insisted in their sons being admitted, and soon obtained it. The transformation from a military elite into a powerful and dangerous conservative guild was taking place and was accompanied by an increasing difficulty in obtaining victories at war.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301106A;No longer an elite corps;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#Economical crisis#
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301107
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 473 data = -1 } # Kurdistan
				owned = { province = 474 data = -1 } # Sivas
				owned = { province = 485 data = -1 } # Aleppo
				owned = { province = 486 data = -1 } # Nuyssaybin
				owned = { province = 490 data = -1 } # Siria
				owned = { province = 491 data = -1 } # Lebanon
				owned = { province = 495 data = -1 } # Jordan
			}
			countrysize = 25
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301107"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301107"
	style = 3

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1584 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1650 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "ACTIONNAME301107A"
		command = { type = treasury value = -500 }
		command = { type = loansize which = 200 }
		command = { type = inflation value = 10 }
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION  value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 3 }
		command = { type = infra value = -5000 }
		command = { type = population which = 477 value = -5000 } # Anatolia
		command = { type = population which = 476 value = -2000 } # Angora
		command = { type = population which = 483 value = -2000 } # Adana
		command = { type = population which = 1610 value = -2000 } # Antalya
		command = { type = population which = 478 value = -2000 } # Smyrna
		command = { type = population which = 482 value = -2000 } # Konya
		command = { type = population which = 356 value = -2000 } # Bulgaria
		command = { type = population which = 359 value = -2000 } # Hellas
		command = { type = population which = 358 value = -2000 } # Macedonia
		command = { type = population which = 360 value = -2000 } # Morea
		command = { type = population which = 357 value = -5000 } # Thrace
		command = { type = population which = 484 value = -1000 } # Cyprus
	}
}
EVENTNAME301107;Price revolution crisis;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301107;In 1584, unable to meet the costs of the Persian wars and with a reduced tax base due to the timariot crisis, the Divan or High Council ordered a debasement of the coin. It was a huge mistake. The ratio of the akche to the ducat went soon from 60 to 200. Together with the overabundance of precious metals, the prices increased sharply, and the low wages ruined the people. Nobody understood the problem and the coinage debasements continued. In 70 years inflation rose 500%. Tax pressure increased to compensate for the loss of income. The ruined peasants abandoned the fields forming vagrant bands (levendat). Population decreased and instability rose, triggering multiple revolts. The damage was very profound since the crisis lasted almost a century.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301107A;Rats!;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Janissary decadence III #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301108
	trigger = {
		AND = {
			domestic = { type = innovative value = 1 }
			NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 9 } }
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301108"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301108"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1589 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301108A"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301108;The Janissary rebellion of 1589;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301108;The military was also affected by the economical crisis, and after the war with Persia the Janissary started to seize lands illegally. In 1589 the janissaries rebelled on claims that they were being robbed from their pay, because salary was given in debased coinage. Three years later the sipahi also mutinied because they were not given their full pay. In 1596, 30,000 sipahi refused to fight at Mezo-Keresztes in Hungary. Yet the janissaries forcefully resisted any attempt of reformation.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301108A;The army refuses to fight unless paid in full in advance;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#Agricultural crisis#
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301109
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301109"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301109"
	style = 3

	date = { day = 1 month = february year = 1595 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "ACTIONNAME301109A"
		command = { type = provincetax which = 477 value = -2 } # Anatolia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 478 value = -2 } # Smyrna
		command = { type = provincetax which = 356 value = -2 } # Bulgaria
		command = { type = provincetax which = 359 value = -2 } # Hellas
		command = { type = provincetax which = 358 value = -2 } # Macedonia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 357 value = -1 } # Morea
		command = { type = provincetax which = 484 value = -2 } # Cyprus
		command = { type = provincetax which = 479 value = -1 } # Ionia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 364 value = -2 } # Bosnia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 366 value = -2 } # Croatia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 363 value = -1 } # Kosovo
		command = { type = provincetax which = 321 value = -2 } # Rumelia
		command = { type = provincetax which = 355 value = -2 } # Serbia
		command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -2 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -2 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -1 value = -1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301109;Agricultural crisis and famine;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301109;The price revolution crisis soon led to deteriorating living conditions and peasant oppression. As the Ottoman taxation system was based on agriculture the preassure on country laborers became unbearable and was increased by widespread corruption. The conditions for Christian peasants were worse, and the Balkans impoverished. Marginal farmlands were abandoned to stocks, and a general decline of agriculture took place, especially commercial agriculture, causing widespread famine and population decline. In Anatolia and Smyrna wandering bands of landless peasants with military experience (levendat) became the ferment for the Celali revolts. The Ottoman Government went from having the highest income in Europe to being permanently strapped for cash.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301109A;Rats!;;;;;;;;;;


Code:
# Janissary decadence IV #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301110
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301110"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301110"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1622 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301110A"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
	}
	action_b ={ # A way out
		name = "ACTIONNAME301110B"
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
		command = { type = losebuilding which = -1 value = barrack }
		command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 120 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 5 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -400 }
		command = { type = manpower value = -50 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301111 } # Janissary decadence V
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301112 } # Janissary decadence VI
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301113 } # Janissary decadence VII
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3383 } # Janissary reform
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3400 } # Janissary reform
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 04082 } # Mustafa I restored
		command = { type = sleepmonarch which = 04083 } # Murad IV
		command = { type = wakeleader which = 119001 } # Osman II
		command = { type = wakemonarch which = 04099 } # Murad IV shortened ten years
	}
}
EVENTNAME301110;The sultan dies at the hands of the Janissaries;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301110;Osman II started a campaign against his vassals of Moldavia and Wallachia, but was defeated by the Poles at Khotyn, Ukraine in 1621, when the janissaries broke and fled the battle. Realizing what was the problem he started to reform the Janissary. When he met strong opposition, he announced his pilgrimage to Mecca, with the secret intention of recruiting a new army in Egypt and Syria to break the Janissary. But he did not fool the janissaries and they revolted and strangled him. Osman was the first sultan to die at the hands of his janissaries, but would not be the last. In total four sultans were killed and four more lost their thrones due to the Janissary. The janissaries became more dangerous to their own country than to any other. Did Osman have a chance against the Janissary?;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301110B;Osman has escaped;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301110A;They are too powerful;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Janissary decadence V #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301111
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301111"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301111"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1634 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301111A"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = trade value = 500 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = 1 }  
	}
}
EVENTNAME301111;Janissaries engage in trade;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301111;With families to support, in the midst of an economical crisis, and with problems to get their payment, the janissaries looked for additional sources of income, and they had the power to take them from others. In addition to land ownership, soon they also took to trade. The members of each orta (regiment) engaged in the same trade and soon started monopolistic practices. By 1634 the janissaries controlled many guilds in Istanbul, like the butchers, fruit and vegetables and coffee-roasting. Once they were able to secure the duty-free importing of goods, a big part of the international trade also fell in their hands. With economic power they attracted all classes and soon corruption took over the enlistment process.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301111A;An army of traders;;;;;;;;;;


Code:
# Janissary decadence VI #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301112
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301112"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301112"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1658 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301112A"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301112;Janissaries oppose reforms;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301112;With the admittance of the sons of Janissaries, the former rigorous and harsh training that had guaranteed the quality of the corps had entered decadence, as the fathers did not want to impose on their sons the almost brutal training that the Janissary academy, the Acemi Oglan, required in the past. During the war against Venice, and while the janissaries deposed and killed sultan Ibrahim, attempts were made to improve the training and increase its duration, but the cadets at the Acemi Oglan rebelled twice, in 1657 and 1659, to oppose such changes. As a result, while the western armies were introducing the reforms pioneered by Maurice of Nassau, of the Netherlands and Gustav Adolf of Sweden, the Ottoman army remained in the past, ignoring the military revolutions introduced since the Italian wars.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301112A;We are falling back;;;;;;;;;;


Code:
# Janissary decadence VII #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301113
	trigger = {
		AND = {
			domestic = { type = innovative value = 1 }
			NOT = { domestic = { type = aristocracy value = 9 } }
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301113"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301113"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1683 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME301113A"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -1 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301113;End of the devshirmeh;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301113;Despite their obvious decadence, the Janissary, allied to the Bektashi order of dervishes (Muslim monks) and the Ulema (learned), as defenders of the old tradition, conserved and increased their reputation, associated by people with the former glory of the past Muslim victories, and resisted any reformation attempt until their end in 1826. During the disastrous war against Austria and Poland of 1683-1698 the rules of admission were suspended, and the janissaries doubled their size. The devshirmeh or Christian boys levy was gradually abandoned. From then on, only sons of the janissaries, family members, or those who bought admission could enter this social elite. For all practical purposes the Janissary had become hereditary, and their numbers continued to increase.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301113A;The old ways are tried and true;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
#Economical crisis#
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301114
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 359 data = -1 } # Hellas
			owned = { province = 355 data = -1 } # Serbia
			neighbour = RUS
			countrysize = 25
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301114"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301114"
	style = 3

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1780 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "ACTIONNAME301114A"
		command = { type = treasury value = -1000 }
		command = { type = loansize which = 200 }
		command = { type = inflation value = 15 }
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION  value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 3 }
		command = { type = infra value = -5000 }
	}
}
EVENTNAME301114;Hyperinflation and nationalism;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301114;In 1780, under financial constrains after the Russian war over Crimea, the Ottoman government started to resort to currency debasement. The resulting inflation and the rebellions that it caused, together with more wars prompted more debasements until 1850 creating a massive hyperinflation of 1,200 to 1,500% leading to the replacement of the Akche by the Kurus, at a rate of 120 to one, and exacerbating every problem in the Ottoman Empire. Eventually even the British Pound was affected by this crisis that led to lack of foreign credit by the Ottoman government and temporary foreign financial control of the debt administration in 1881. This long economical crisis marks the lowest point of the Ottoman Empire, and coincides with a period of extreme difficulty characterized by Anatolian and Balkan uprisings, Greek and Serbian independentism and wars against Russia, Iran and Egypt. Given the evident decline, strong attempts at reformation were made in the XIX century, but they came too late for the Empire.;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301114A;Rats!;;;;;;;;;;

Code:
# Janissary decadence VIIb #
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301116
	trigger = {
		atwar = no
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301116"
	desc = "EVENTHIST301116"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 10 month = march year = 1604 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 10 month = march year = 1608 }

	action_a ={ # No
		name = "ACTIONNAME301116A"
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
	}
	action_b ={ # Yes
		name = "ACTIONNAME301116B"
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = 1 }
		command = { type = land value = 3000 }
		command = { type = losebuilding which = -1 value = barrack }
		command = { type = ADM which = -3 value = 120 }
		command = { type = MIL which = 1 value = 120 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 5 }
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -400 }
		command = { type = manpower value = -50 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -2 }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301110 } # Janissary decadence IV
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301112 } # Janissary decadence VI
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 301113 } # Janissary decadence VII
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3383 } # Janissary reform
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3400 } # Janissary reform
	}
}
EVENTNAME301116;The destruction of the Janissary;;;;;;;;;;
EVENTHIST301116;The Janissary rebellion of 1589 made the sultans aware that the Janissary had become an obsolete corps. Not only they were not performing as well as they used to, but they had also become very dangerous to their own country, periodically rebelling to increase their privileges and opposing any reform. Sultan Ahmed now was thankful that his predecessors had chosen to keep the Janissary closed to all but the devshirme, as they had not been allowed to grow out of control. For ten years Mehmed III, his father, had planned their destruction, gathering enough loyal forces to confront them. However at the last moment he lacked the courage to carry on. Ahmed is aware that the Janissary has the support of the Ulema (learned), the Bektashi order of dervishe (monks), ample parts of the population that sees them as Islam fighters responsible for the glorious past against the Christians, and more importantly, a big part of the military that will fight at their side...;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301116B;It must be done at whatever cost;;;;;;;;;;
ACTIONNAME301116A;I would be risking my own life;;;;;;;;;;

New Sultan for monarchs.tur:
Code:
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 04099 }
	startdate = {
		day = 10
		month = september
		year = 1633
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 8
		month = february
		year = 1640
	}
	name = "Murad IV"
	DIP = 5
	MIL = 7
	ADM = 6
	dormant = yes
	remark = "10 years later because Osman survives" 
}

New leader for leaders.tur:
Code:
historicalleader = { 
	id = { type = 6 id = 119001 } 
	category = monarch 
	name = "Osman II" 
	startdate ={
		day = 1
		month = may
		year = 1622
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = september
		year = 1633
	}
	rank = 0 
	movement = 3
	fire = 1 
	shock = 1
	siege = 0
	dormant = yes
	remark = "Sultan" 
}
 
Last edited:

Arilou

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-Anything we do to the technology usually has a very delayed effect.
-The bigger the country the better the technology. I refer only to size within national boundaries, as widespread undiscriminated colonization has a very negative impact on technology. This is clearly seen with Russia or England, but it is also true for the Ottomans or France. The French wars of religion cause a big technological depression in France because of the size reduction.

From what I've seen that is true in Europe/"Wealthy Asia", where provinces/taxvalue is high and/or you have same state religion/culture.

There is a point where it is actually counterproductive (stab/techcost-wise, as both of these increase with the number of provinces IIRC) to conquer new lands (if they are too poor) *especially* if they are of the wrong religion/culture as this increases the effect.
 

Norrefeldt

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Aug 1, 2001
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Typos and grammar (checked by a Swede :eek: )
EVENTHIST301104;
inocuous -> innocuous
Janisary -> missing s
but a fine ruler could steer the Empire even when following history -> no proper ending

EVENTHIST301115;
staments ?

EVENTHIST301105;
This system proved a great source of income and an incentive for new conquests. -> ...proved to be...
chiftliks, what is that?

EVENTHIST301106;
admitance -> two t
brough -> brought
ardor -> ardour
now with families to take care -> take care of..

EVENTHIST301107;
abandonned -> one n
unstability rose triggering multiple revolts -> instability rose, triggering..

EVENTHIST301109;
crisis soon lead -> led
specially -> especially

EVENTHIST301110;
revolted strangling him. -> ...revolted and strangled him.

EVENTHIST301111;
Janissaries -> janissaries

EVENTHIST301116;
the Janissary have the support of the Ulema -> has
 

Norrefeldt

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Aug 1, 2001
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It all looks very fine, one last comment:

Code:
#Economical crisis#
# By Fodoron #
event = {
	id = 301114
	trigger = {
		AND = {
			owned = { province = 359 data = -1 } # Hellas
			owned = { province = 355 data = -1 } # Serbia
			neighbour = RUS
			countrysize = 25
		}
	}
It's very harsh, with losing two manus (that's fine). But it's also damn easy to avoid, by just releasing Serbia for example. What about changing AND to OR?
 

unmerged(29041)

Amnistiado por viejuno
May 12, 2004
5.496
0
Norrefeldt said:
Typos and grammar (checked by a Swede :eek: )
Suggestions implemented.
You are probably learning my pattern of English mistakes by now. That should make your work easier :p
Now seriously, I appreciate you taking the time to review them.
 

unmerged(49930)

Sergeant
Oct 30, 2005
81
0
I was brainstorming on another topic, and I got a nasty idea which I think worths consideration :D Ok, this is the most update Ottoman thread so I decided to put it here.

Problem: Although gets big help, Ottoman Empire fails to prevail most of the time. Does not make it beyond a regional power.

Problem: If Ottoman Empire develops, Persia (Safavids) is never a challenge. But it should be.

Problem: If Ottoman Empire develops, It is still a power late in the game with high tech levels. Even if it doesn't develops like the way it is aimed to be, it still has one of the the highest land techs.

My suggestion is to look at the problem from a different way and rework it completely :eek:

Ottoman conquest to the west was something like a muslim crusade (jihad), sole defender of the sunni faith and Spanish like "colonization". They shouldn't be guided by cores. They were not getting their cores. They were conquering. So they should get the BB. Again, they were protecting the Muslims of the west med. And for the Europeans, Ottomans were a scary myth with their different war tactics early. For about a century through the 1600's, they were not dare to attack the Ottomans because of fear, although a strong alliance would possibly make a victory. But for the early campaign Ottomans should be unbeatable and should not care High BB. Starting with level 5 land tech (ability to assault) and infra tech 2 awarded with a FAA when Byzantium falls, and switching them back to Orthodox tech group may help I guess. They will conquer and defeat aggressors easy. This will prevent the premature fall of Ottoman Empire and open paths for expansion. In the early time frame of EU2 Ottomans were much superior, and very well confident of themselves, were not engaged in many diplomatic relations with the west, nor had the "neighbour bonus". In fact, when they tried to switch to the latin tech group was late in the 18th century. Making them start with Orthodox tech group will make West Europe catch and pass, eleminaing competition and handicaping Ottomans from being still strong after mid 1700's, while giving a big boost in the beginning. They should start very strong and Europe should catch up and pass. This means less help to the Otto's.

Ideally Ottomans should not have cores north/west of Kosovo, not to mention Hungary. They shouldn't have slavonic culture either, but may have armenian and (may be) albanian. These were the people that felt themselves as part of the Ottoman Empire, which was not a solely a Turkish Empire. In fact Turks (Anatolia) were mostly just making the manpower where many leaders were of Albanian origin, and many officials had Greek/Macedonian and Armenian roots. Turkish identity rose as late as 20th century and in fact it did not really mean Turkish, but it defined the Muslim Ottomans with the exception of Arabs. That is why Orthodox Turks of Konya were included in the exchange of people agreement with Greece after the liberation war. Most of the time people were "Ottomans", and the Empire was a Balkan Empire, where most of the investment was made in the Balkans, not Anatolia. But it all began with the capture of Constantinople, so the extra cultures should be given after that. Until then, the Empire is just another Seldjuk Beylik like Karaman and Candar, with an exeption of ability to go for jihad to the west.

They should not have cores west of Cyrenica either. Give them sole defender of the sunni faith with the caliphate title instead; and vassalization of Algiers by event (but no cores).

I think most of these were made to help Ottomans perform well, but with a initial land tech bonus like Venice and Genoese have on trade tech at the beginning may solve many porblems. After all Ottomans were far superior in the begining, not land tech "1". And they did have a more efficient infrastructure organization compared to european serfdom.
 
Last edited:

Garbon

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Qelebex said:
They should not have cores west of Cyrenica either. Give them sole defender of the sunni faith with the caliphate title instead; and vassalization of Algiers by event (but no cores).

As far as I know, that can't be done.

If anyone wants to work on the rest of the Persia formation sequence, thats fine by me. I ended up going east to the Mughals and between that and being bogged down by the new map, I haven't really the time to devote to Safavid Persia. :eek:o
 

unmerged(49930)

Sergeant
Oct 30, 2005
81
0
Well... Nobody seems interested but this is quite working, with nice side effects. I gave the Ottomans land tech 5, deleted the great army reform and decentralization effect of the provincal system events. I started Ottomans in the Orthodox tech group form the beginning. They used the early assault ability to quickly retake their captured provinces against a Hungary-Austria-Albania alliance invading them and succeeded to hold without giving any provinces. Then reaching level 9 land tech, they used the extra CRT to expand quickly. They conquered Thrace in 1444.

In 1518 France caught the Otto in land tech. In 1536 they were advanced. Austria caught in 1536 and passed in 1558 when Spain reached the same level.

Ottos were strong in land tech but not in naval tech, which was the correct situation. The Ottos never had the naval tech to build strong warships that can stand open seas. Suleyman's Navy failed big time when they tried to help the Muslim Indians against Portugal. But they may need a little help with a naval supplies manufactory to help them in Mediterrenean dominance. Becuase although they did fight well, the lost Dobrudja against France/Spain/Portugal/Hungary allience. Actually this is not a case which you will see often. Low naval tech while having high land tech is more historic for the Ottomans.

Other side kicks: Hungary keeps strong through the 15th century, then its western neighbors get stronger in the late 16th century. Muscowy deals easily with the muslims and Russia is properly formed. The initial +18 neighbor bonus on land tech gained from the Otto really helps. For the other Orthodoxes, which are mostly 1 province nations, it does not make much differences as they are eaten up by the Ottomans early, but they are stronger against other attacks so they survive until they are Ottos' target.

With a few other minor tweaks, this seems to be working. I will run some other test games.
 

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Nov 6, 2003
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Actually, I would challenge a few notions here:

First, the Ottomans should definitely be a major naval power by the sixteenth century. Atlantic warships really aren't necessary in the Mediterranean, which is why the Ottomans never built any, their mission to India in 1538 failed thanks to lack of co-operation among their allies and had almost nothing to do with Portugal.

Second, as you've noted, the Balkans were extremely important to the empire and they should therefore get cores and cultures for the whole region. As for Hungary, Austria never would have gotten it without the Ottoman presence as Hungary otherwise would have been too strong for Austria, so a strong Hungary-desiring AI OE is a good thing for historical simulation purposes.

Finally, all Ottoman techs should rank at or near the very top all the way up to the eighteenth century and only gradually decline from there.
 

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Amnistiado por viejuno
May 12, 2004
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zacharym87 said:
Finally, all Ottoman techs should rank at or near the very top all the way up to the eighteenth century and only gradually decline from there.
I would actually set the decline starting in the seventeenth century. The Ottoman armies missed all the military revolutions since the Italian wars. They did not use the combined arms strategies and were not good at infantry manouvering or artillery support. Their fortifications were also not up to the standards. More and more they relied on their huge size to win wars by attrition rather than battlefield victories, at the same time they had bigger and bigger problems to win wars, and started to lose some of them.

On the rest I agree. Between 1530 and 1570 they had the best navy in the Mediterranean.