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LlywelynII

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Hey, if Cheg gets back or any of you guys know Turkish, I'd really appreciate it if we could make the Ottoman army names less embarassing. The armynames.csv thread is here.

Right now AKKs units are named:
AKK;Padisah Nöbet
AKK;Kürtçe Nöbet
AKK;Ermeni Müdafi
AKK;Ilk Kolordu
AKK;Kürdistan Alay
AKK;Ikinci Kolordu
AKK;Ermeni Alay
AKK;Üçüncü Kolordu

The Sultan's units are named:
TUR;Imperial Army
TUR;Army of Anatolia
TUR;Army of Syria
TUR;Army of Egypt
TUR;Army of Persia
TUR;Army of Hungary
TUR;Army of Austria
TUR;Army of Crimea
TUR;Army of the Balkans
which, needless to say, is much less fun. Not that I ever play the ravenous Turk anyway... :D

Next year in Konstantinoupolis!
jay.
 

|AXiN|

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Fodoron - my problem with that event is that it's only trigger is the date, and talks about the Ottoman conquests being more or less over, but if I'm playing the OE, then at that time my conquests are still going strong. If I'm still expanding, then the crisis as explained in the event shouldn't eventuate.
 

unmerged(29041)

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|AXiN| said:
Fodoron - my problem with that event is that it's only trigger is the date, and talks about the Ottoman conquests being more or less over, but if I'm playing the OE, then at that time my conquests are still going strong. If I'm still expanding, then the crisis as explained in the event shouldn't eventuate.

Your critic is reasonable, however a human player most of the time will keep expanding regardless of historic limits. We can then chose to hit only the AI for historic reasons and let the player out easy for not being playing historically, or hit them both knowing that the human will face the challenge succesfully, at the same time that he learns about the causes and consequences of the Ottoman decline. I favor the second for being more edutaining.

The problem with the Timar system was that it was not adapted or substituted by something according to the new times. Many experts think that the limit of Ottoman expansion was determined by the distance that the armies could travel from Constantinople and still arrive by the month of July. Expanding further was simply not an option, as they could not project military power further than that.

I don't mind adding a trigger that requeries to have several Hungarian provinces if you feel that it would improve the event. However this actually goes against the problem that created the timar crisis, but it could be justified as a less successful Ottoman Empire doesn't require to be hit that much.

Alternatively or additionally I could re-word the event to make clear that the timar crisis had several causes, between them having taken the suboptimal Hungarian lands, that Suleyman so much hesitated before taking them, but was more or less forced by circumstances to do it to prevent the Habsburgs from taking them.

Let me know what would work for you.
 

|AXiN|

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I think ownership controls would be useful for two reasons - people who manage to ahistorically expand could get out of it if we have some fairly hard, but not impossible, provinces in NOT brackets. Additionally, if you have some standard provinces - I'd suggest some Hungarian ones and some Egyptian ones - you could make sure that underperformers don't get smacked about. If possible also a techlevel requirement - if they're already behind they shouldn't be punished - and this could be across all 4 techs to still hit people teching.

I think that if you're looking to go the edutainment angle you really need to inform the player beforehand - last time I played OE I was struck by the way the events are univerally optimistic until after Suleyman, at which point they all basically say that the OE sucks - IMO it's as confusing as the current HYW resolution.
 

unmerged(29041)

Amnistiado por viejuno
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Changed. Banat and Maros are very Hungarian provinces, so if OE ownes them it is because it has got Hungary. I don't remember seeing Presburg in Ottoman hands this early, and tabaristan is there in case the player is forgetting about Europe and going towards India.

I also changed the test of the timar event, and of the first event, explaining the player that he can choose to play the decadence in full or forfeit part of it.
 

unmerged(29041)

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Lets go with the next in the series. This one has neither triggers no choices, but remember that it is put to sleep by the second event, so only the AI and the players that chose to play the decadence will see it.

Code:
# Janissary decadence II #
# by Fodoron#

event = {
	id = ????
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Janissaries allowed to marry"
	desc = "The admitance of muslims into the Janissary brough an unexpected problem as part of them were married. The restrictions to marry became more lax and finally the janissaries were able to extract from Selim II a general permission to all janissaries to marry. The janissaries, now with families to take care, lost a great deal of warrior ardor. Their cost also raised greatly, as their adequate salary became insufficient to support a family. More problems followed as the janissaries insisted in their sons being admitted, and soon obtained it. The transformation from a military elite into a powerful and dangerous conservative guild was taking place and was accompanied by an increasing difficulty in obtaining victories at war."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = august year = 1566 }

	action_a ={
		name = "No longer an elite corps"
		command = { type = land value = -3000 }
		command = { type = naval value = -1000 }
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
	}
}
 
Last edited:

|AXiN|

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Given the path to get to it, it looks good. Would it be possible to give it, say, a possible time of happening of the entire year rather than a fixed date - I dislike fixed date events for some reason. Just minor, though, not a bother.
 

unmerged(29041)

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|AXiN| said:
Given the path to get to it, it looks good. Would it be possible to give it, say, a possible time of happening of the entire year rather than a fixed date - I dislike fixed date events for some reason. Just minor, though, not a bother.

But if there is no trigger, wouldn't it happen at the first date of the range given? I thought that the offset gives the number of days before it checks again for the conditions, but in this case there are no conditions.
 

|AXiN|

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Good question. Like I said, it isn't really an issue, I just like to always give some sort of helpful feedback if I can on ways to make things even better.
 

LlywelynII

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Fodoron said:
But if there is no trigger, wouldn't it happen at the first date of the range given? I thought that the offset gives the number of days before it checks again for the conditions, but in this case there are no conditions.

Kind of on, kinda off topic:

From Havard's EU2 Editing Bibble

3.10 Offset
This is a random offset in days, always used in conjunction with the date statement. It means that the event may happen on any of these days from the time specified in date. If the event has triggers it will start searching for triggers on this date.

Note: After the first trigger check after a random number of days the triggers are checked again at intervalls defined by the offset. This means that for an 'offset = 360' the event will first check the triggers on a random day the first year after the set date, and then once every year!

Example:

offset = 30

In this case the event will start checking for triggers on a random date within 30 days from the date specified. If no valid triggers are found on that date it will check again each month (30 days) until triggers are met, or until event deathdate is reached.

If a game is saved/reloaded in the middle of an offset, the event is checked at reload (which explains why you so often get certain events on reload).

If there is no offset then the event triggers immediately upon date = { whenever }.

jay.
 

LlywelynII

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Fodoron said:
But if there is no trigger, wouldn't it happen at the first date of the range given? I thought that the offset gives the number of days before it checks again for the conditions, but in this case there are no conditions.

Kind of on, kinda off topic:

From Havard's EU2 Editing Bibble

3.10 Offset
This is a random offset in days, always used in conjunction with the date statement. It means that the event may happen on any of these days from the time specified in date. If the event has triggers it will start searching for triggers on this date.

Note: After the first trigger check after a random number of days the triggers are checked again at intervalls defined by the offset. This means that for an 'offset = 360' the event will first check the triggers on a random day the first year after the set date, and then once every year!

Example:

offset = 30

In this case the event will start checking for triggers on a random date within 30 days from the date specified. If no valid triggers are found on that date it will check again each month (30 days) until triggers are met, or until event deathdate is reached.

If a game is saved/reloaded in the middle of an offset, the event is checked at reload (which explains why you so often get certain events on reload).

If there is no offset then the event triggers immediately upon date = { whenever }.

jay.
 

unmerged(21523)

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I think we should take a different appraoch to the Ottoman decline than the one being outlined so far. As AXiN noted, the problem is that Ottoman events tend to be universally optimistic until 1566 and absolutely horrendous afterwards. As more and more Ottoman specialists are even just themselves beginning to understand, the standard wisdom on the rise and decline of the Ottoman Empire is both factually inaccurate (ie, the OE continued to expand even into Europe well into its "decline" years) as well as being theoretically wholly unrealistic as a picture of a living society (Ottoman society, like all other human societies past and present, was dynamic and ever-changing and in no way either static or fixed). I have no problem with 1 event to recognize the slackening efficacy of the janissaries, could a long series could give the Ottos -5 to miltary DPs and -10,000 or so to land tech which is a grotesque exaggeration as the Ottoman army was no pushover even in its declinging years (ie Catherine's officers during her second Ottoman war (1768-74) noted that the Russian artillery was only marginally more efficient than the Turkish artillery). I submit the biggest problems facing the OE during these years were 1) inflation, 2) rebellion, 3) Persian resurgences, and 4) inertia. As an idea or events we could simulate the bride the janissary core demanded of each new sultan upon accession from Mehemed II onward by giving the OE with each new monarch an event requirng a) pay the janissries (lose cash or suffer inflation) or b) attempt to put down their revolt. Just one idea, I'll post some others soon.
 

unmerged(29041)

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I only partially agree with you. Of course Ottoman society was lively and culturally rich. Nobody says anything about static. But the Ottoman Empire had a series of structural problems that were irresoluble unless the whole country was turned upside down:
  • It was autocratic and teocratic. Not only all the power was in the sultan's hand, but he was required to exert it for things to run smothly. And the sultans stopped being even reasonably good.
  • It was based in agriculture and in the XVI century the economy shifted to be controlled by commerce and manufactory. It was hugely hit by the economical crisis that turned it from a very rich country into a quite poor one.
  • From a technological point of view it stopped innovating. For a time it continued buying foreign technology, but even that didn't suffice and it really fell behind.

This reasons are the basis for all the rest: Corruption, transformation of the army into a self-serving guild, economical crisis, rebellions, etc...

Your point that it continued expanding is accurate, but that can be explained by sheer size, as is the case for Russia in many cases. The Ottomans had basically run out of enemies in 1550 by killing all their former neighbours. The new neighbors were on the defensive and did not have territorial aspirations in Ottoman lands, or at least they were not pushing them. What was left was basically frontier wars. In EU2 you see the same thing. Big size carries the AI quite far, as it can field huge armies, and take wars to a draw even if technologically behind.

For the Ottoman empire, after 1550, the events started to be really bad. They are probably too good before 1520, but that is because people were treating to get them to expand correctly. If you take a game were the Ottomans have expanded correctly, you will see that their military technology is way better than European military technology. This is clearly incorrect, and sometimes leads to problems, as they continue leading the tech race well into 1750.

The events that I have placed are of two types. One type applies the brake to correct their military technology impulse by reducing innovativeness, offensiveness and quality, and at the same time takes out military investment. This last thing works worse than expected as the 1550-1650 technology levels are not very expensive, so often the reduction is negligible if they recently changed level. But in my tests, the whole series seems to have the correct effect of reducing Land military technology below the best European technologies by around 1675, as it should be. I have not seen that they automatically start losing land, often they continue expanding if they pick the right enemy. These events can be easily counteracted by the human player by clicking the DPs every 10 years (they are unlikely to be innovative anyway), and by investing more money in technology, as the human player is filthy rich.

The other type of events are the economical crisis. There were two very hard ones, and their causes were the same as the Spanish economical crisis. It is called the price-revolution crisis, it hit all of Europe and it was based on the overabundance of precious metals. But it hit two countries specially hard. Spain and the Ottoman Empire. Both had huge military expenses, were based in the agriculture and responded badly to the crisis, debasing their currency to keep Government income. The Spanish crisis is better studied, but it now appears that the Ottoman crisis was worse.

Of course we can discuss how to best represent the decline, but I think that a correction of military technology is required, and that the economical crisis should be also represented. That we make the whole thing optional, in other words AI only, does not seem fair to me. Other countries have bad periods that are well represented, but the Ottomans did not recover in EU2 time.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(29041)

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And here is the first economical crisis. It should not bankrupt the Ottomans, but it should hurt, as it did historically. The requirements are that they have expanded correctly in the Middle East and could own or be neighboring whoever owns Azerbaijan, Kirkuk and Iraq. In fact the economical crisis was not dependent on Persian wars, but on the reduction of income right at the time the price-revolution took place. This economic crisis is much milder than the Spanish one, even if the experts seem to think that the Ottoman crisis was deeper and longer. The population loss is inconsequential. The revolt risk could be adjusted so it does not fall on top of the Celali revolts, as they are basically the same thing. The inflation and the loss of centralization are the main damage, but I think they are adequate.

Code:
#Economical crisis#
event = {
	id = ????
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 473 data = -1 } # Kurdistan
				owned = { province = 474 data = -1 } # Sivas
				owned = { province = 485 data = -1 } # Aleppo
				owned = { province = 486 data = -1 } # Nuyssaybin
				owned = { province = 490 data = -1 } # Siria
				owned = { province = 491 data = -1 } # Lebanon
				owned = { province = 495 data = -1 } # Jordan
			}
			countrysize = 25
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Price revolution crisis"
	desc = "In 1584, unable to meet the costs of the Persian wars and with a reduced tax base due to the timariot crisis, the Divan or High Council ordered a debasement of the coin. It was a huge mistake. The ratio of the akche to the ducat went soon from 60 to 200. Together with the overabundance of precious metals, the prices increased sharply, and the low wages ruined the people. Nobody understood the problem and the coinage debasements continued. In 70 years inflation rose 500%. Tax pressure increased to compensate for the loss of income. The ruined peasants abandoned the fields forming vagrant bands (levendat). Population decreased and instability rose triggering multiple revolts. The damage was very profound since the crisis lasted almost a century."
	style = 3

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1584 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1650 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "Rats!"
		command = { type = loansize which = 200 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -500 }
		command = { type = inflation value = 10 }
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = losemanufactory which = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION  value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 3 }
		command = { type = infra value = -5000 }
		command = { type = population which = 477 value = -5000 } # Anatolia
		command = { type = population which = 476 value = -2000 } # Angora
		command = { type = population which = 483 value = -2000 } # Adana
		command = { type = population which = 1610 value = -2000 } # Antalya
		command = { type = population which = 478 value = -2000 } # Smyrna
		command = { type = population which = 482 value = -2000 } # Konya
		command = { type = population which = 356 value = -2000 } # Bulgaria
		command = { type = population which = 359 value = -2000 } # Hellas
		command = { type = population which = 358 value = -2000 } # Macedonia
		command = { type = population which = 360 value = -2000 } # Morea
		command = { type = population which = 357 value = -5000 } # Thrace
		command = { type = population which = 484 value = -1000 } # Cyprus
	}
}
 
Last edited:

Norrefeldt

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A harsh one. If we can get the Ottomans to rise properly they do need something to halt them later on, as have been argued here. I think we should look at their overall DP settings before adding new events, I think the Centralisation was looked upon not long ago.
When playing MP, Spain usually declines, due to the inflation hits, but the OE never does.
The event above is easily avoided by a human (by losing one of the provinces). Adding a minimum size as alternative (OR) to holding all the listed provinces would stop that, and also make sure all decent sized AI played OE get it.
 

unmerged(29041)

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Norrefeldt said:
The event above is easily avoided by a human (by losing one of the provinces). Adding a minimum size as alternative (OR) to holding all the listed provinces would stop that, and also make sure all decent sized AI played OE get it.

Added minimum size 25. This seems reasonably high to me but let me know if you think otherwise.
 

unmerged(29041)

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So let's review the DP situation of the Ottomans. They start with the following:

Code:
A7
C2
I6
M7
O7
L7
Q3
S4

from 1419 to 1540 they receive through option_a events:

Code:
A7      -3  A4
C2  +10 -4  C8
I6   +1 -1  I6
M7   +2 -1  M8
O7   +2 -1  O8
L7   +1     L8
Q3   +2     Q5
S4          S4

from 1540 to 1819 they receive through option_a events:

Code:
A4   +2 -2  A4
C8   +7 -7  C8
I6   +3 -1  I8
M8          M8
O8   +1     O9
L8          L8
Q5          Q5
S4   +2     S6

Quite impressive DPs, specially if we also consider that Quality can only rise through random events.

We should decide what the DPs should tend to be. So far my proposed series would change them to:

Code:
A4          A4
C8      -4  C4
I8      -7  I1
M8   +1     M9
O9      -6  O2
L8
Q5      -5  Q0
S6

Seen this perhaps I should tone them down a little, but innovativeness, offensiveness and quality should be kept low to be historically correct. How low is of course a matter of debate.
 

lucaluca

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suggestions for flavor events:

Another suggestion for events: more flavour events for OE! I checked and the only flavour event in AGCEEP is the same of vanilla version, "Great Sinan constructions". Other events could be:
- convertion of Haghia Sophia in mosque, building of Fatih Mosque over Saint Apostles Church: boost in stability, worsen relations with christians
- conquest of Tabriz by Selim: this lead to the definitive incorporation of persian culture in Ottoman society; again stab boost, maybe infra and treasury?
- Piri Reis draws the map of atlantic ocean and Europe: which effects?
- building of the Great Observatory of Murad III in 1577 and destroyed by people in 1580
- great party of Murad III for Prince Mehmet in 1582: this ceremony lasted for 55 days and muslims, christians and jews took part in it; it was exetremely expensive but also a self-celebration of the ottoman superiority (what they thought, of course), over the world; huge loss in treasury, boost in infra and stab.
- 1605, destruction of the organ sent as gift to Mehmet III from Queen Elizabeth: if you destroy it, worsen relations with england, if you don't, stab hit and revolt in Constantinople.
- building of Sultanahmet Mosque by Ahmet I in 1609-1616.
- beginning of the building of Yeni Mosque under Safiyyeh Sultan in 1595, and finishing of it under Turkhan in 1660.
- Lale Devri: 1722, building of Saadabad Gardens in Kagithane, Halic, shift to "lacherous" style of living; spreding of the frantic passion for tulip flowers.

And many more could be found...
 

Norrefeldt

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Fodoron said:
We should decide what the DPs should tend to be. So far my proposed series would change them to:

Code:
A4          A4
C8      -4  C4
I8      -7  I1
M8   +1     M9
O9      -6  O2
L8
Q5      -5  Q0
S6

Seen this perhaps I should tone them down a little, but innovativeness, offensiveness and quality should be kept low to be historically correct. How low is of course a matter of debate.
Should really offensivenes really sink that low. Didn't the Ottoman armies have a rather large part of cavalery later than most other nations, and trusted on their ability in shock? Did they really start to focus om fortifications instead of a large standing army? Their politics were surely more defensive later on, but I'm not so sure their war strategy were.
 

unmerged(29041)

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Norrefeldt said:
Should really offensivenes really sink that low. Didn't the Ottoman armies have a rather large part of cavalery later than most other nations, and trusted on their ability in shock? Did they really start to focus om fortifications instead of a large standing army? Their politics were surely more defensive later on, but I'm not so sure their war strategy were.

No, I am not sure it should sink that low. I didn't look at this when I made the events. But the problem is of morale. With high offensive, high land, medium-high quality the Ottoman armies have a huge morale advantage that makes them win most battles. The morale of the Ottoman armies should decline until they don't win battles on account of morale, but on numbers, and sometimes even lose on account of morale. As they are now, they are unbeatable, wich is fine for the 1419-1540 period, but not for later. Since they are very land oriented, that leaves offensiveness and quality as the only way to reduce morale. We have to find that spot and then we can adjust the effect of the events to give it.

EDIT: keep in mind that these figures are AI only and subject to random event drift. The human player usually have it even much better, as the options_b for many Ottoman events are very generous. An Ottoman player does not have to touch his DPs except basically to compensate random events. The dance of centralization DP slider is just plain crazy.