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unmerged(49930)

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Oct 30, 2005
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Fodoron said:
On the rest I agree. Between 1530 and 1570 they had the best navy in the Mediterranean.

Yes. A big navy, around the tech levels where galleys are powerful is ok. And the naval powers of the game are not mediterrenean powers anyway. They may given help by a naval supplies manufactory.

But what my main point is, starting Ottomans with Orthodox tech group and giving them land tech 5 helps them to succeed historicly without additional help and then west europe catches them in tech levels, Ottomans survive for a time with their huge manpower, and then begin to lag... just in time, without event interventions to make them rise or fall. This also helps Russia and Hungary.

Removing slavonic culture did not work in my experiment. About zacharym's point, OE can made Hungary desiring with the hitlist. I don't think it really needs the cores. Anyway, my main point is above. This is what may make the Ottoman Empire work without additional help.
 

Garbon

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Qelebex said:
But what my main point is, starting Ottomans with Orthodox tech group and giving them land tech 5 helps them to succeed historicly without additional help and then west europe catches them in tech levels, Ottomans survive for a time with their huge manpower, and then begin to lag... just in time, without event interventions to make them rise or fall. This also helps Russia and Hungary.

Do you have evidence to support why they should get land tech 5? I'm sure a lot of nations would fare better early on if we gave them high techs.
 

Toio

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Qelebex said:
Removing slavonic culture did not work in my experiment. About zacharym's point, OE can made Hungary desiring with the hitlist. I don't think it really needs the cores. Anyway, my main point is above. This is what may make the Ottoman Empire work without additional help.

hmmm, i would presume that if they lost slavonic culture in 1540 then loose Greek culture later on , then with a loss of 30% income per province for these cultures, would mean an eventual decline for the OE.

maybe it takes too long.

maybe a lack of culture should mean 50% loss
 

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Garbon said:
Do you have evidence to support why they should get land tech 5? I'm sure a lot of nations would fare better early on if we gave them high techs.

Well yes. Venice performs better with starting at trade level 3, doesn't it?

Western European Dominance did not start at the time when Europa Universalis 2 time frame starts. The start of the New Age is marked with the fall of Constantinople. It is considered as the trigger of Renaisence. At the beginning Ottoman tactics were superior. They won wars on their own, against big alliances. And they expanded very quick like no other great power did. Early Ottoman success did not depend on large manpower. In 1444-Varna they won the war losing just 15.000 men, making the enemy lose 65.000. How could they do that with these settings, starting at the same land tech level?

EU2 does not represent decisive field battles, and the assault ability helps the Ottomans to capture back quickly the provinces they lose during wars, so they don't fail just because of trying to deal with many opponents sieging different provinces. They recapture and punish.

West should improve quicker. That justifies the latin tech tree fpr them. However the early Ottoman superiority should be represented and they should not develop as fast. Speaking in game terms, they didn't fail because of switching to Orthodox or Muslim tech group and bad events. They prevailed because they were superior to the west initially, and later they failed as they lagged because of their tech group. This is as simple as that. Too much credit is given to the abilty of monarchs. Turkish expansion to the west was going on since 1071, and the Ottomans were the only principality of the desolved Anatolian Seldjuk State that had land on its west to expand. They were not really in a make it or break it situation. They didn't lose a single land battle against the west for a very long time.
 

unmerged(29041)

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You just don't know what you are talking about. The costs between land tech 5 and 11 are very small. The Ottos would be at Land 11 before most countries reach land 3, making that area totally unplayable. And what would happen when the Ottos send an expedition to Friburg, just because they are at war with some country there? Lots of fun with an invincible Ottoman army running amock in Germany, Italy or where ever.
The hell will freeze over before I would support giving [size=+1]any[/size] nation level 5 land technology at the start of the game.
 

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Fodoron said:
You just don't know what you are talking about. The costs between land tech 5 and 11 are very small. The Ottos would be at Land 11 before most countries reach land 3, making that area totally unplayable. And what would happen when the Ottos send an expedition to Friburg, just because they are at war with some country there? Lots of fun with an invincible Ottoman army running amock in Germany, Italy or where ever.
The hell will freeze over before I would support giving [size=+1]any[/size] nation level 5 land technology at the start of the game.


fully agree,
 

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Fodoron said:
You just don't know what you are talking about. The costs between land tech 5 and 11 are very small. The Ottos would be at Land 11 before most countries reach land 3, making that area totally unplayable. And what would happen when the Ottos send an expedition to Friburg, just because they are at war with some country there? Lots of fun with an invincible Ottoman army running amock in Germany, Italy or where ever.
The hell will freeze over before I would support giving [size=+1]any[/size] nation level 5 land technology at the start of the game.

Actually the quick time is between level 6 and 11. In my experiment OE never had 2 CRT advantage and a CRT advantage only for a brief time. As I said in 1518 France caught the Otto in land tech. In 1536 they were advanced. Austria caught in 1536 and passed in 1558 when Spain reached the same level. (Suleyman the Great died in 1566. Sokullu died in 1579 and Ottoman Expansion slowed down and stopped after that).

More than half of the provinces OE has at the beginning are wrong religion provinces and it has to deal with Ahead of Time Penalty... And It is in Orthodox tech group.

Also most of OE's neighbors are in Orthodox tech group and they benefit form the neighborhood bonus. In 1469 Albania had land tech 5 when OE was still only LT6. OE got to LT11 from LT5 in 70 years (1488). Almost ten years later, OE didn't have any CRT advantage when Hungary and Rusia reached level 9 (France was level 10 already).

It doesn't happen like the way you guess.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(40707)

Just call me Yoda in private!
Mar 1, 2005
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Some minor problem with date in this event:
Code:
#The Treaty of Kasr-i Sirin with Persia#
event = {
	id = 3387
	trigger = { exists = PER }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3387"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3387"
	style = 3
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = [COLOR=gold]1645[/COLOR] }
	offset = 1000
	
	action_a = { # Full Reconciliation
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387A"
		command = { type = dynastic which = PER }
		command = { type = relation which = PER value = 300 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 48 }
	}
	action_b = { # Moderate Treaty
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387B"
		command = { type = relation which = PER value = 100 }
	}
	action_c = { # No Treaty
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387C"
		command = {  }
	}
}
EVENTHIST3387;The Treaty of Kasr-i Sirin, signed between the Ottoman Empire and Persia in 1635, established borders that have changed little to this day. Hostilities between the two great empires decreased remarkably following the treaty as their relations steadily improved until 1722 when war broke out again. However, the treaty was dusted off and renewed in 1747.;;;;;;;;;;7685

Which is the "good date"? And which could be a right deathdate for this event (but missing actually)?
 

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YodaMaster said:
Some minor problem with date in this event:
Code:
#The Treaty of Kasr-i Sirin with Persia#
event = {
	id = 3387
	trigger = { exists = PER }
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3387"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3387"
	style = 3
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = [COLOR=gold]1645[/COLOR] }
	offset = 1000
	
	action_a = { # Full Reconciliation
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387A"
		command = { type = dynastic which = PER }
		command = { type = relation which = PER value = 300 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 48 }
	}
	action_b = { # Moderate Treaty
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387B"
		command = { type = relation which = PER value = 100 }
	}
	action_c = { # No Treaty
		name = "ACTIONNAME3387C"
		command = {  }
	}
}
EVENTHIST3387;The Treaty of Kasr-i Sirin, signed between the Ottoman Empire and Persia in 1635, established borders that have changed little to this day. Hostilities between the two great empires decreased remarkably following the treaty as their relations steadily improved until 1722 when war broke out again. However, the treaty was dusted off and renewed in 1747.;;;;;;;;;;7685

Which is the "good date"? And which could be a right deathdate for this event (but missing actually)?


A quick google says 1639 is correct
 

unmerged(40707)

Just call me Yoda in private!
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That's what I did first but I saw other dates (and not in EU2 related links) so I was a little confused and needed confirmation. 1639, right?
 

unmerged(12680)

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Qelebex said:
With a few other minor tweaks, this seems to be working. I will run some other test games.

I would certainly like to hear more on any further tests made...

It's not like what every tech level represents is perfectly defined anyway...
 

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Oct 30, 2005
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anti_strunt said:
I would certainly like to hear more on any further tests made...

It's not like what every tech level represents is perfectly defined anyway...

Haven't run any more tests, sorry. It somewhat disturbed my historical taste to start a country which doesn't event have siege equipments at the time with a "tech" level 35 years ahead of time. It was their tactics and light cavalry.

If only we could have started the game from 1st June 1453... Then the torthodox Otto starting with level 5 LT would rise and fall just in time, without boosting or crippling events.
 

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since 1.39 I have seen a trend on why the OE are very passive lately.

They seem to retain their vassalation on other nations for a very long time. My current game has them as having
Bosnia
Serbia
wallachia
karaman
albania
crimea

all as vassals

year is 1482
Anyone else see this???
 

Norrefeldt

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I have seen that with Fodoron's AI files. Further raising of war should be tried IMO. Even if that increases the chance of declaring war on countries not on the hitlist, that's not a problem in this particular case, since they should expand on all fronts.
It might not be a bad thing that the vassalisations are kept for long, since they are historical and gives benefits too, like lower stab and research costs.
 

Mazyrian

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Maybe it was already suggested, but I was thinking about Ottomans' event 3377 (Kösem Sultana), and thought that, since her bonus last only for Ahmed I, maybe there could be done a series of events that would fire for every monarch the next 40 years that give to each one +4 to DIP, ADM and MIL (if this is done, then the exact values could be different for each monarch); the time would be about 12 months for Ibrahim I (the last one) but for the others the 480 months are fine. This way the event ould work as intended.
The events could be something like this:


event = {
id = xxxxx
trigger = {
monarch = 04080
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
desc = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 480 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx
trigger = {
monarch = 04081
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
desc = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 480 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx
trigger = {
monarch = 04082
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
desc = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 480 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx
trigger = {
monarch = 04083
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
desc = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 480 }
command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 480 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxxx
trigger = {
monarch = 04084
}
random = no
country = TUR
name = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
desc = "Kösem Sultana still stands"
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = DIP which = 4 value = 12 }
command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 12 }
command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 12 }
}
}

And option b in event 3377 would sleep this events.

(Also, this metod could be used for option b of vanilla Russia event 3415 (The Russian Orthodox Church declared independent of Constantinople) if that effect is wanted).
 

Mazyrian

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Well, I didn't put any other effect to make it as close as possible to to intention of the original (but I don't know much of Ottoman history, so if you think is needed, it must be). For the problem of deathdate, last event could last 480 months also but event 3384 could kill Ibrahim I and wake another Ibrahim I that would be exactly the same (but now without the bonus from Kösem Sultana).
 

Norrefeldt

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I have read a bit more on her story, and modified the events accordingly. She wasn't equally powerful under all Sultans under her lifetime, and schemed to have her own sons on the throne. Under Mustafa I and Osman II she's not included anymore. I have lowered her stats, since I haven't heard anything about her interfering in military matters, nor in diplomacy. With a longer span she will be have a large impact anyway. The first two events exists, and have only been slightly changed.

First two events replace old ones, the last three are new.
Code:
#Kösem Sultana - domineering wife of Ahmed I.#
event = {
	id = 3377
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3377" #Kösem Sultana
	desc = "EVENTHIST3377"
	#-#Ahmed I married a fifteen year old beautiful Greek slave girl who would prove a very mixed
blessing to the people of the Ottoman Empire. Kösem Sultana ruled her husband as she would rule no less than 
four of his successors--with an iron grip. Kösem was the real power behind the throne, and although she was a 
very able ruler, she was not a very popular one.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1611 }
	offset = 1000
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1614 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3377A" #Wed Kösem
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 480 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 3 value = 480 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 301031 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 301032 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 301033 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3377B" #Choose another wife
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 3384 } #TUR: The Murder of Kösem
	}
}

#The Murder of Kösem Sultana#
event = {
	id = 3384
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3384" #The Murder of Kösem
	desc = "EVENTHIST3384"
	#-#Kösem had enjoyed the longest reign of any of the harem women, almost half a century. Under the 
reign of Mehmed IV, she was still meddling in high politics. She probably attempted to have her grandson 
Mehmed IV killed, but was herself strangled by men in the entourage of her daughter-in-law, Turhan Sultan. 
Although the old conniving witch was hardly missed by most, she still had loyal supporters among the 
Janissaries, who were outraged by her murder.

	date = { day = 3 month = september year = 1651 }

	action_a = {
		name = "This will bring unrest"
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 12 value = 5 }
	}
}

#Kösem Sultana
event = {
	id = 301031
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			monarch = 04083 # Murad IV, historical version
			monarch = 04099 # Murad IV, late version
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Kösem Sultana under Murad IV"
	
	desc = "Murad was the son of Sultan Ahmed I. When his other son, the mad Mustafa, once again 
was dragged out of the Golden Cage and enthroned, he ordered the execution of Kösem's sons. The eunuch corps  
intervened and crowned Kösem's oldest son as Murad IV (1623-40). Thus Kösem attained her ambition of becoming 
valide sultana. Murad was for a long time under the control of his relatives and during his early years as 
sultan, his mother, Kösem Sultan, essentially ruled through him."

	action_a = {
		name = "She knows best"
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 480 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 3 value = 480 }
		}
}

#Kösem Sultana
event = {
	id = 301032
	trigger = {
		monarch = 04084 #Ibrahim I
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Kösem Sultana under Ibrahim I"
	
	desc = "On his deathbed, Murad IV told his mother how much he disdained his brother Ibrahim, and how 
it would be better for the dynasty to end rather than continue with insane royal seed. He ordered Ibrahim's 
death, but Kösem intervened, and Ibrahim was ordered out of the Cage. Ibrahim was a merciful sovereign and he 
declared firmans to hinder the famine and poverty. But, he was dominated by his mother and his reign can be 
considered as the reign of Kösem Sultana. In August, 1648 Sultan Ibrahim was strangled."

	action_a = {
		name = "She knows best"
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 480 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 3 value = 480 }
		}
}

#Kösem Sultana
event = {
	id = 301033
	trigger = {
		monarch = 04085 #Mehmet IV
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Kösem Sultana under Mehmet IV"
	
	desc = "Ibrahim's seven-year-old son, Mehmed, by Turhan Sultana, became the new sultan. Kösem had no 
intention of relinquishing the offıce of valide to Turhan, and she refused to move to the House of Tears. She 
schemed to have Mehmed poisoned, so that she could elevate to the throne a young orphan prince whom she could 
manipulate. A war of two sultanas began."

	action_a = {
		name = "OK"
		command = { type = DIP which = 1 value = 38 }
		command = { type = ADM which = 1 value = 38 }
		}
}
 
Last edited:

unmerged(31994)

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I still linger however if anyone had considered more 'alternative' Ottoman events?The Jannisary events were a nice flavour, but one expects more, like perhaps a fall of Vienna event, or an alternative conquest of Italy, Industrialization and reform and so forth and so forth would be wonderful additions.It simply gets annoying when u conquer half of Europe and still get "North Africa revolts" or "Pashas revolt".
 

Norrefeldt

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Some alternative events could be a fitting addition, like the conquest of Vienna perhaps, since it was so close. Just something small to mark that the player have achieved what the Ottomans tried but never achieved. I'm not sure what special effects a conquest of Italy would give, apart from the ones alreay in the game, and the Industrialisation would probably fit better in a Fantasy add-on, than in AGCEEP.

Many events could surely have better triggers, to not happen when it's totally inappropiate, and we welcome anyone willing to help us.