ptan54

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Having been told to bugger off the Ottoman 1419-1520 thread, and having failed to find an appropriate thread to make suggestions beyond 1520, I am forced to start a new thread.

Now, for the third time:

If Hungary becomes totally Islamified, maybe the Ottomans can get Magyar culture? This was their last great conquest, and if they get Slavonic culture because they partially Islamified the region, perhaps this Magyar idea isn't as crazy as it seems? All of the cores gained in the Suleyman demands the Keys to Hungary event must be Islam (except Vienna) for this event to happen. The Treaty of Karlowitz event will convert these provinces to Christian once again, to simulate the Habsburgs or whoever evicting the Muslims.
 

ptan54

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If you could point out an appropriate thread, or comment on the idea, that would be a tad more useful. As for why I "chose" to set this thread at 300 years, a moderator could easily change the title of the thread if it should happen that people wish to divide things up differently. The Ottoman glory days arguably ended after Suleyman's death, so I don't imagine too many exciting events for the final years of the game, seeing as they're primarily bad events.
 
Last edited:

chegitz guevara

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Well, for one thing, it would require annexing Transylvania, as well as converting Slovak, German, Ruthenian and Slavic provinces. Slavic will be easy, but the others pretty dang hard. That's six additional provinces beyond all the Magyar ones.

How about limiting it to all Magyar provinces instead? There's only five Magyar provinces, and Banat generally changes to Slavic and Transylvania has a good argument for being Romanian instead, which brings us down to three (maybe).

The other side to this is: why should only Magyar culture get treated this way? Why not Italian or Romanian, etc?
 

chegitz guevara

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ptan54 said:
If you could point out an appropriate thread, or comment on the idea, that would be a tad more useful.

Pissy pissy. :)

The Ottoman glory days arguably ended after Suleyman's death, so I don't imagine too many exciting events for the final years of the game, seeing as they're primarily bad events.

Oh, there are plenty of events for the next three hundred years rattling around in my head, don't worry. I'm just not done with the first hundred years.
 

ptan54

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The rationale was because Hungary was their final great conquest, and the Hungarians seem to be flexible - many converted to Reformed, but when the Habsburgs reestablish control, they convert to Catholic again. Not inconceivable that extended Ottoman rule may have resulted in a Sunni Hungary. The rest of Europe seemed to take religion a lot more seriously - notice the bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants.
 

chegitz guevara

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I don't think they converted willingly. Hungary is still today an outpost of Protestantism in a sea of Catholic and Orthodox.

Anyway, the Ottomans conquered a larger region of the Safavid Empire after the fall of Hungary, so Hungary wasn't the last great conquest.
 

ptan54

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The last great European conquest then.

Actually Hungary is primarily Catholic. Seems to suggest conversion out of the need to survive.

http://www.country-studies.com/hungary/religion.html

http://www.photius.com/countries/hungary/society/hungary_society_religion_and_religio~8607.html

In 1986, according to Western estimates, about 67.5 percent of the population was Roman Catholic, 20 percent was Reformed (Calvinist), 5 percent was unaffiliated, and 5 percent was Lutheran (its members were in particular the German and Slovak minorities but also included many ethnic Magyars).
 

chegitz guevara

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Well, the Ottomans didn't force their religion on the majority of their Christian subjects. Only those taken by the devshirme were forced to convert. Actually, by law, it was illegal for the Crhsitians of continental Europe to convert, though it didn't stop them. Kind of a meaningless law, since you couldn't be punished for becoming a Muslim once you were a Muslim.

Under Ottoman rule, Hungary became a very poor and desolate place, mainly because of the constant warfare. I think not having Hungarian culture, which results in the Ottomans not getting much revenue from Hungary (plus contributes to stability problems).
 

chegitz guevara

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It probably would. It would also probably help their stability, which collapses around the time that Hungary gets eaten. Suleyman didn't really want to conquer Hungary, but the Zapolyai's were too weak to keep the Habsburgs from taking it, and the sultan didn't want the Emperor Charles on his doorstep.
 

unmerged(21523)

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I'd be in favor of including ptan54's proposal among the fantasy events, as the prospect of an Islamified Hungary doesn't strike me as being any more far-fetched than a resurgent Byzantium in the fifteenth century.
 

saskganesh

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chegitz guevara said:
It probably would. It would also probably help their stability, which collapses around the time that Hungary gets eaten. Suleyman didn't really want to conquer Hungary, but the Zapolyai's were too weak to keep the Habsburgs from taking it, and the sultan didn't want the Emperor Charles on his doorstep.

exactly. the Ottos have a hard choice with Hungary. sacrifice stab and gain a strategic, territorial edge, or abandon it, tech better, and hope that Aus doesn't warmonger them (unlikely).

i think its good as modelled.
 

Mad King James

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I don't think it's a good idea to give the Ottomans the culture of any area that they never managed to hold on to for very long. The same reason they shouldn't get Magyar is the same reason they shouldn't get Persian or Italian or German. They can conquer it, but I can't see their "eastern roman successor" status holding the same water outside of anatolia/balkans area.
 

unmerged(29041)

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I have come to notice in many of my last AGCEEP games that the decadence of the Ottoman Empire is not well represented. AGCEEP did a great job in helping the Ottoman Empire achieve its historic status, and did that by giving it a strong push with a lot of freebies. But in my opinion such strong push has an undesirable consecuence. Despite changing to muslim technology in 1615, the Ottoman Empire remains one of the strongest nations in the game almost until the end. This is not only ahistorical, but also can distort the end game quite a lot.

Here is some data from some of my games outside of the Ottoman area:

In a Russian game, in 1750, the Ottoman Empire was at 42/18 Land/Naval, while France was at 30/18 and Austria at 30/19.

In a Portugal game, in 1786, the OE was at 53/23, while France was at 53/26, and Austria at 53/24. This situation is very common. The OE of the late 1700s and early 1800s is as tough as the leading nations or near them, and when compared with its neighbors it is always way ahead, many times a couple of CRT's ahead of most muslims. This leads to problems to some of them, that get trampled.

Why is that? Because OE has been favored very much by AGCEEP, and then given its size, wealth and inertia, it just goes on keeping an edge over most nations. Another reason is that it appears to be very innovative in the mid 1700s, which it shouldn't. In four games it was at innovation 10, 6, 8 and 8. After the 1550s, the OE should go down in innovativeness real fast. If this causes conversion problems we should solve them some other way.

After taking a look at the OE events for the period 1550-1819, mostly what we see in terms of bad events are the Celali revolts, which the OE usually has no trouble squashing.

I have made a series of events to represent the Ottoman decadence. A human player should be able to prevent the worst of it but not all, as he is able to prevent to a certain extent the Russian times of troubles. A little bit of challenge though should remain, both to give a feeling of the Ottoman decadence, and to provide a little challenge with one of the easiest countries to play.

But before posting them I would like to know people's opinion about this situation and the need to correct it, and then we can go and discuss the events.
 

Norrefeldt

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You are correct, their final innovativeness is too high.

At start: innovative = 6 (vanilla 5)
Code:
Sheikh-ul-Islam Office instituted	 		 1425 	-1	5
Fate of the Patriarchate				(1453)	+1	6
Sheikh-ul-Islam Office Powers Curtailed			 1605	+1	7	
Lale Devri (The Tulip Age)		 		 1718	+2	9
Patrona Halil Uprising - The End of Lale Devri		 1730  	-1	8

"Sheikh-ul-Islam Office Powers Curtailed" is not in vanilla, so we get them two higher. Even the vanilla value of 6 in 1800 sounds too high for me.