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Garbon

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Toio said:
you are not seeing the big picture , this change will help the TUR also when BYZ is no more, that is, being blockaded ahistorically.
As I have already shown in previous posts, the blockade only happened for the TUR only for one short 20 year span in our game time.

So TUR performs much better post-BYZ if the straight is made unblockable? Why did you come in here talking about BYZ then? Color me...skeptical.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Indeed, I just pointed the BYZ problem and an unblockable strait will not change this situation.
 

Toio

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YodaMaster said:
Indeed, I just pointed the BYZ problem and an unblockable strait will not change this situation.

what does this mean?
 

unmerged(40707)

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If TUR can't pass through Thrace when BYZ exists, because of broken vassalization and no MA, blockable or unblockable strait will not change the problem for a war against Hungary.
 

Canenald

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In case of historical fall of Mamluk Empire, an event that makes Ottoman Sultan the Khalifa and Hedjaz a vassal of Ottomans may fire before the event that makes Ottomans inherit the Mamluks and makes Hedjaz free to actually become Turkish vassals. To fix this, the only Hedjaz event that frees them from vassalage to Mamluks should be triggered by all Mamaluk choices in 'Fall of the Mamluk Empire'. Ottoman event 'Sultan becomes the Khalifa' should fire only when Hedjaz is free, like this:


Code:
#(1485-1820) The Sultan becomes 'Khalifa'
event = {
	id = 301030
	trigger = {
		[COLOR=Yellow]
		OR = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 746 data = -1 } #Egypt
				control = { province = 746 data = -1 } #Egypt
				NOT = { exists = MAM }
			}
			vassal = { country = MAM country = TUR }
		}
		OR = {
			AND = {
				exists = ARA
				NOT = { vassal = { country = ARA country = TUR } }
				NOT = {	war = { country = TUR country = ARA } }
			}
			AND = {
				NOT = { exists = ARA }
				owned = { province = 496 data = -1 } #Arabia
				control = { province = 496 data = -1 } #Arabia
			}
		}[/COLOR]
		OR = {
			AND = {
				ai = no
				NOT = { year = 1567 }
			}
			ai = yes
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME301030" #The Sultan becomes 'Khalifa'
	desc = "EVENTHIST301030"

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1485 }
	offset = 10
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME301030A" #Assume the title of Caliph
		command = { type = vassal which = ARA }
		command = { type = vp value = 50 }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = arabic }
		command = { type = relation which = ARA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ALD value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = MOR value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = TRI value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ADE value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = OMA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = MOG value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = DLH value = 50 }
		command = { type = badboy value = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 64 value = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
	}
}

#-#Following the spectacularly successful Mamluk campaign, the Sultan brought the last of the Abbasid caliphs to Istanbul as his 'guest'. The title of Caliph was then transferred to the House of Osman. Henceforth Ottoman monarchs were also the spiritual leaders of all Sunni Muslims.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(40707)

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And what happens if Mameluks don't own the province needed for the independence of Hedjaz (Arabia 496) and ARA is not already on the map? ARA_110000 will never fire.

Becoming Calife is not tied to the existence of Hedjaz but the victory against Mamluks.

I can see how TUR_301030 can fire before TUR_301022 is "ended" if TUR is played (silly event condition that just wait for an event to be displayed and not really happened). In all cases, intention is to see ARA be free if released by an action that ends with TUR_301022 and Hedjaz is just "lost" if MAM wants to continue the fight in MAM_219001 action_c but it doesn't mean Hedjaz will become a TUR vassal because of this.

But it is a fact TUR will never become Calife if MAM chooses MAM_219001 action_c as it is (even if amended with your proposal, there is still a problem if MAM doesn't own Arabia and not only). Maybe we could add a condition in TUR_301030 if TUR owns Egypt (MAM doesn't exist for any other reason than consequence of MAM_219001, i.e. TUR_301022 and TUR_301023) and owns province 496 (Arabia) or ARA is a vassal.
Modification of MAM_219001 action_a is useless if we find another way for TUR_301030. Nevertheless, proposed change for TUR_301030 is too restrictive.
 
Last edited:

Canenald

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I've editied TUR_301030 to make the trigger as unrestrictive as possible. TUR should now be free to choose how they wish to claim the title. It can be claimed either by conquering Egypt and Arabia if the Fall of Mamluk Empire event chain somehow gets broken, or by conquering Egypt and vassalizing Hedjaz which will automatically happen if Fall of Mamluk Empire triggers correctly.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Better but ownership and control of Egypt is not the only condition. TUR can become Cailfe if MAM is simply subjugated (vassal) as result of the fall of the Mamluk Empire event.

Be aware there is another thing for AI and BB regulation TUR_301058 event based on TUR_301030 as condition.

Following modification of the first two conditions in the trigger should cover all cases:
Code:
		OR = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 746 data = -1 } #Egypt
				control = { province = 746 data = -1 } #Egypt
				NOT = { exists = MAM }
			}
			vassal = { country = MAM country = TUR }
		}
With this, there is no need to trigger ARA_110000 in MAM_219001 action_a but I'm still not convinced it is a good idea to add the command in action_c. Why would Hedjaz submit to OE in this case?
 

unmerged(40707)

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Just an explicit safety, according to revolt.txt, minimum and capital for MAM are indeed 746.
 

unmerged(40707)

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We still have the issue of the triggering of ARA_110000 in MAM_219001 action_c (that is not in the spirit of the original event) and triggering in action_a becomes useless for sure now.

I see a problem with following condition in your proposal:
Code:
			AND = { # ARA exists [COLOR=YellowGreen]and it is a vassal of TUR[/COLOR]
				exists = ARA
				[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]vassal = { country = TUR country = ARA }[/COLOR]
				NOT = {	war = { country = TUR country = ARA } }
			}
Event will ensure Hedjaz will become a TUR vassal, no matter if vassal before. Condition in blue must be a mistake and TUR shouldn't be vassal of ARA instead (cross-vassalization to be avoided). Condition should be NOT = { <line in blue> }.
 
Last edited:

Canenald

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YodaMaster said:
We still have the issue of the triggering of ARA_110000 in MAM_219001 action_c (that is not in the spirit of the original event) and triggering in action_a becomes useless for sure now.

Removed from both. I'm not sure ARA would still support MAM when it is clear that they are about to be destroyed, but it is better for them to remain vassals of MAM until MAM are destroyed so that they don't become vassals of someone else, which would prevent them from becoming vassals of TUR.

YodaMaster said:
I see a problem with following condition in your proposal:
Code:
			AND = { # ARA exists [COLOR=YellowGreen]and it is a vassal of TUR[/COLOR]
				exists = ARA
				[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]vassal = { country = TUR country = ARA }[/COLOR]
				NOT = {	war = { country = TUR country = ARA } }
			}
Event will ensure Hedjaz will become a TUR vassal, no matter if vassal before. Condition in blue must be a mistake and TUR shouldn't be vassal of ARA instead (cross-vassalization to be avoided). Condition should be NOT = { <line in blue> }

Fixed. I got lost there. :wacko:
 

Toio

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Smyrna was overwhelmingly Turkish by game start. I'm also changing th name of the city to Izmir.

478;Smyrna;coastal;orthodox;turkish;0;100;3;0;0;0;5;11;0;0;0;Wine;0;4;0;0;0;0;0;0;10845;2587;10836;2492;10811;2634;10898;2556;1011;-100;-100;0;-100;-100;0;-100;-100;0;-100;-100;0;Anatolia;Eastern Europe;Europe;Izmir;0;0;0;1;10871;2520;10735;2529;10784;2529;10749;2486;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1;-1

When I started playing Karaman a short while ago, I noticed that in AGCEEP, Smyrna starts turkish / orthodox, just as chegitz guevara suggested. However, the city of Smyrna was mainly Greek well into the 20th century. Only the mass deportation in the 1920s, where all Turks had to leave Greece and all Greeks had to leave Turkey, changed this. Smyrna was even called "Gavur İzmir", unbelieving Izmir, because of its Christian majority. Of course, the province includes more than just the city, and the last census of 1914 shows a large turkish majority for the province as a whole. However, this was five hundred years later; it is reasonable to assume that by 1419, the province, and especially its economic elite, was Greek dominated, and that the province culture changed sometime later.

The culture of Anatolia changed gradually over centuries, starting well in the Middle Ages. So by 1419, in much of Anatolia, Turkish was the main language and culture; the region around Smyrna, however, came under Turkish rule only in the 14th century, not counting a brief interlude from 1076-1104. Thus, I think it is fine to revert to the "vanilla setting" for Smyrna with Greek/Orthodox, but to change this accordingly either with "City of Man's desire" or through another event.

I confess, however, that I am deeply unsatisfied with the culture changes in events like "City of Man's desire", and that the Byzantium fantasy events with their chain of decisions necessary to change culture are much closer to what happened in Anatolia (although the direction was the other way round, of course).
 

Toio

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When I started playing Karaman a short while ago, I noticed that in AGCEEP, Smyrna starts turkish / orthodox, just as chegitz guevara suggested. However, the city of Smyrna was mainly Greek well into the 20th century. Only the mass deportation in the 1920s, where all Turks had to leave Greece and all Greeks had to leave Turkey, changed this. Smyrna was even called "Gavur İzmir", unbelieving Izmir, because of its Christian majority. Of course, the province includes more than just the city, and the last census of 1914 shows a large turkish majority for the province as a whole. However, this was five hundred years later; it is reasonable to assume that by 1419, the province, and especially its economic elite, was Greek dominated, and that the province culture changed sometime later.

The culture of Anatolia changed gradually over centuries, starting well in the Middle Ages. So by 1419, in much of Anatolia, Turkish was the main language and culture; the region around Smyrna, however, came under Turkish rule only in the 14th century, not counting a brief interlude from 1076-1104. Thus, I think it is fine to revert to the "vanilla setting" for Smyrna with Greek/Orthodox, but to change this accordingly either with "City of Man's desire" or through another event.

I confess, however, that I am deeply unsatisfied with the culture changes in events like "City of Man's desire", and that the Byzantium fantasy events with their chain of decisions necessary to change culture are much closer to what happened in Anatolia (although the direction was the other way round, of course).

while you are correct with the history of smyrna, I think IIRC that the decision was a game decision to strengthen the TUR .
But I could test your option and see if it makes any negative impact on TUR.

one issue , is if the TUR never take Thrace or never move their capital to thrace, we are left with .........

its probably best to change it with this event
#(1451) The Conquests of Mehmed II The Conqueror
event = {
id = 301002
 

ConjurerDragon

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