Ottomans 1419 - 1520

[unmerged(40707)]

it's only you and me arguing, so just include it.

That doesn't say nobody is listening... I just wait to see the in-game effects.

 

[Garbon]

Nah, it's not a make or break thing, and it's contested. We can modify it for the next version, if there's a majority for it.

Well considering that the Albanian event is throwing up errors upon loading, I'm inclined to knock it out based on its non-functionality and contested status.

Same thing for the Ottman events we are discussing, it's only you and me arguing, so just include it.
I do think the Indian material, at least the things I commented on should be left out, since no one have showed up to say I'm wrong. It will be two different principles though, where peace resolutions are scripted in one case (for OE) but not allowed for this Indian case.

I cannot be bothered to argue about details anymore if it will delay the release.

Okay.

Me neither on the bolded bit.

 

[dharper]

Greetings! I'm taking a course in East Central European history at my local university this year, and the first essay is an in-depth look at a facet of ECE history between the 6th and 17th centuries (inclusive).

Now, I'm not asking for help. Instead, I'm suggesting that I use this research to support my addiction, er, hobby, and write some new events for the AGCEEP. Those of you familiar with my work in India and Africa know that I have a knack for writing events, leaders, dormant monarchs and so on for otherwise ignored countries (plus, I'm humble! Wait a minute... o ).

Areas I could look at include Poland, Lithuania, the Teutonic Knights, Hungary, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Bohemia, Transylvania, Wallachia, Moldavia, the Ottomans, Albania or any combination of those (sorry, Russia, Ukraine and the HRE are not possible). Suggested essays include topics such as "compare the Hungarian and Polish reformations" or "Discuss the Turkish conquest of the Balkans" - but students are welcome to come up with their own topics; I've already suggested "How the Sejm ruined Poland" and "How the Rumanians guarded their independence in the face of the Turks", but I thought I'd ask around the AGCEEP before I made up my mind.

So, I'm going to be doing a lot of research into one or more countries during the timeframe of the game. Which country or countries deserves a much bigger event file than it has now? What time period isn't handled well (or at all)?

Note: I will be posting this same message to several forums, with apologies in advance.

 

[dharper]

The Palace School: the other Janissaries

I seem to remember a discussion recently about the Janissaries and their effects on the Ottomans.

The sources I'm using suggest that under Suleyman the Janissaries numbered 10-12,000 men - the same as the spahis of the Porte (regular cavalry). While competent and respected, compared to the 130,000 spahi during his reign they made up a small minority.

The book suggests that the more important influence of the Christian slaves was in the administration - the 10% of slaves that were sent to the Palace School to be trained as judges, governors and administrators, chosen for their ability and looks (I kid you not). Once finished training, they were placed in the government (the so-called "Ruling Institution" vs the Turkish-dominated "Religious Institution") by giving them minor posts in the provinces, then allowed to rise through merit.

Christian observers of the time claimed this system of merit-based rewards was one of the decisive factors in the Ottoman successes - especially in terms of keeping their government running smoothly. Their positions were so coveted, in fact, that Suleyman issued an edict promising severe punishments on any official caught taking bribes by Turkish parents wanting their children to be taken in place of a Christian one! (He also exempted Persian, Russian and Gypsy children, for reasons not listed)

Perhaps we could simulate the Palace School by having an Ottoman random event giving a free chief judge or governor from time to time? Or simply have a normal event for Mehmed II, who founded the school. Two or three governors in the 15th century could do wonders for Ottoman performance - they still fail more often than I'd like in games.

Another possibility would be to have an event give a FAA in Anatolia province during his reign, with a price tag/choice attached. This might actually be the best option, and they could certainly use another manufactory.

Incidentally, have we decided anything on the Patriarch event - are we giving BB reductions and/or re-ordering the events so the historical option is option A?

 

[unmerged(33603)]

...

im not reading all of this, but i saw that idea about non-core thrace.
i dont agree with that late coring this prov because ottomans attacked that 8 times earlier.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Previously discussed here: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222978&page=2

Here's my idea for a reformed Constantinople event, replacing the two old ones on the previous page. It's AI only since it's crucial for OE to get the province, while most players would feel fooled in their plan to stop them. (I normally despise the use of AI only events.) I changed the texts to fit better into the log, which is the only place where they will be read by a player. Please comment.

event = {
	id = 338009
	trigger ={
		atwar = no
		exists = TUR
		ai = yes
		NOT = { 
			owned = { province = 357 data = BYZ }
			owned = { province = 357 data = TUR }
		}
        }
	random = no
	province = 357
	name = "The Turkish Sultan demands Constantinople"
	desc = "Our friends the Turks are now agitating to add Constantinople to their empire. We must acquiese or defend it against them in war."
	style = 1

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419}
	offset = 360
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1820 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "We will hand it over"
		command = { type = secedeprovince  which = TUR  value = 357 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 50 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "We will defend it in war"
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = -200 }
		command = { type = war which = TUR }
	}
}

 

[Norrefeldt]

Tsk tsk, this event should be in the Ottoman thread.

In principle I do not oppose it, but is it really necessary? How often do the Ottos fail to conquer Thrace due to it being in other hands? 2%, 5%, 10%? A more pacific AI set-up will make it even less likely by reducing drastically the Italian-Greek random wars.

Other than that, I guess that it would only work for Muslims. I don't see Venice, Serbia or Hungary just handing down Constantinople to the Turks. They would undoubtly go to war to keep it.

Not more than 10% for sure. The main reason from the reports I have read on it, was from their allies taking it.
having it for Muslims only could make more historically likely, if not historical. The reason for a fix was that if it happened, it was likely a game-breaker for them. Better AI's might help, if OE itself declares the wars and can focus on it's hitlist, instead of running around for the wars of it's allies too.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Not more than 10% for sure. The main reason from the reports I have read on it, was from their allies taking it.
having it for Muslims only could make more historically likely, if not historical. The reason for a fix was that if it happened, it was likely a game-breaker for them. Better AI's might help, if OE itself declares the wars and can focus on it's hitlist, instead of running around for the wars of it's allies too.

Well, let's try the new AI then, and if a significant (>5%) number of games show the problem, then I will support the event for Muslims. Otherwise it is better not to fix what ain't broken. I ould not support the event for Christians because it is not realistic. If it is only for Muslims, then you can take out the ai = yes trigger, which is always better.

 

[Toio]

Previously discussed here: http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222978&page=2

Here's my idea for a reformed Constantinople event, replacing the two old ones on the previous page. It's AI only since it's crucial for OE to get the province, while most players would feel fooled in their plan to stop them. (I normally despise the use of AI only events.) I changed the texts to fit better into the log, which is the only place where they will be read by a player. Please comment.

event = {
	id = 338009
	trigger ={
		atwar = no
		exists = TUR
		ai = yes
		NOT = { 
			owned = { province = 357 data = BYZ }
			owned = { province = 357 data = TUR }
		}
        }
	random = no
	province = 357
	name = "The Turkish Sultan demands Constantinople"
	desc = "Our friends the Turks are now agitating to add Constantinople to their empire. We must acquiese or defend it against them in war."
	style = 1

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419}
	offset = 360
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1820 }

	action_a ={ 
		name = "We will hand it over"
		command = { type = secedeprovince  which = TUR  value = 357 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 50 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
	}
	action_b ={ 
		name = "We will defend it in war"
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = -200 }
		command = { type = war which = TUR }
	}
}

If its only an AI event , why give them choice B ?

Hmmm, where have I seen this before

 

[unmerged(49930)]

Too much work is put on trying to make the OE coquer Thrace in mid XV. cc and also trying to keep Byzantium playable. Just cut Byzantine Empire and make it a fantasy only choice like Wales. This will represent the situation better. Byzantine Empire was finished long before the fifteenth century and it had no chance of survival. It was just a well protected city by the time, not holding any land. The conquest was just a matter of time. BYZ had no power of blocking the straits, neither had a navy of that size. OE was controling the Dardanelles since 1353. Thrace as a whole, except for Constantinople was conquered before 1362. They moved an army of 45.000 through Bosphorus in 1444 and BYZ wasn't able to do anything. That province sholud belong to OE from the beginning of the Grand Campaign.

The resurgence of BYZ should be "impossible" from Constantinople BUT it is represented as the second strongest state in the region with its army and navy :wacko: Hey, they were crying for Ottoman help against Serbians and Bulgarians even when they were controlling Thrace and it was the mid 1300's.

I think your dilemma here is trying to please the Byzantium fans while trying to keep the situation as historic as possible. Well this is not possible. That province should belong to OE in the first place. Their capital (Edirne) was in that province since 1364. Trying to please Byzantium fans kills the whole game. You want to play BYZ? Then make Fantasy Byzantium on... and end of discussions on how to make the OE AI conquer Thrace in mid XV. CC, but not before that. I hate seeing BYZ survive in at least half of my games. This is not historicly plausible. The player aiming to restore The Eastern Roman Empire should try it with Morea. The existence of Byzantium should only be represented by events until 1453.

 

[Garbon]

Don't take this personally, but I don't even see that idea ever being entertained.

 

[unmerged(12680)]

Damn those Byzantinophiles...

 

[unmerged(29318)]

give them killer events in straight date like for Spain-Granada

 

[unmerged(49930)]

give them killer events in straight date like for Spain-Granada

That is different. Personally I don't like the very last chance of the minors killed by events. But BYZ should not even have that chance. Look:

OE lands 1413: red
OE lands 1431: pink

Eastern Roman Empire is depending on its rural population for the needed manpower

BYZ starts with an army of 9.000 men and has a manpower of 10.000, has one of the biggest navies at start, yet everybody seems happy with these ahistoric elements

 

[niceta]

bah...
why change the status quo?
we also discussed this one elsewhere and the event that permit to conquer easily BYZ by OE was cancelled.

 

[unmerged(29318)]

bah...
why change the status quo?
we also discussed this one elsewhere and the event that permit to conquer easily BYZ by OE was cancelled.

killer event just like in spain-granada, not inherit event. Ai still need do something. That event have DOW command in straight date and give Spain large army bonus and +5 stability. maybe for Otto add command for reduce badboy. and for army bonus should be in balkan provinces couse Byzantium will easily blocade the strait if that army was located in anatolia :rofl:
And Byzantium have large navy maybe for reason invading Aydin . often see that happen in my game

we need to reduce manpower of thrace and incease by event maybe city's man desire event. and if Otto fail to got thrace before 1470 many event will not fire. couse that have trigger with situation Otto got Thrace. maybe should give some event have longer periode. or just simply fix balkan situiaton for historical reason.

 

[Toio]

BYZ starts with an army of 9.000 men and has a manpower of 10.000, has one of the biggest navies at start, yet everybody seems happy with these ahistoric elements

I am unhappy with this, BYZ had 8000 to defend constantinople and of those 8000 , 2000 were foreigners.

There fleet was also very small.

What do you suggest, for the numbers??

 

[Yasko]

Too much work is put on trying to make the OE coquer Thrace in mid XV. cc and also trying to keep Byzantium playable. Just cut Byzantine Empire and make it a fantasy only choice like Wales. This will represent the situation better. Byzantine Empire was finished long before the fifteenth century and it had no chance of survival. It was just a well protected city by the time, not holding any land. The conquest was just a matter of time. BYZ had no power of blocking the straits, neither had a navy of that size. OE was controling the Dardanelles since 1353. Thrace as a whole, except for Constantinople was conquered before 1362. They moved an army of 45.000 through Bosphorus in 1444 and BYZ wasn't able to do anything. That province sholud belong to OE from the beginning of the Grand Campaign.

The resurgence of BYZ should be "impossible" from Constantinople BUT it is represented as the second strongest state in the region with its army and navy :wacko: Hey, they were crying for Ottoman help against Serbians and Bulgarians even when they were controlling Thrace and it was the mid 1300's.

I think your dilemma here is trying to please the Byzantium fans while trying to keep the situation as historic as possible. Well this is not possible. That province should belong to OE in the first place. Their capital (Edirne) was in that province since 1364. Trying to please Byzantium fans kills the whole game. You want to play BYZ? Then make Fantasy Byzantium on... and end of discussions on how to make the OE AI conquer Thrace in mid XV. CC, but not before that. I hate seeing BYZ survive in at least half of my games. This is not historicly plausible. The player aiming to restore The Eastern Roman Empire should try it with Morea. The existence of Byzantium should only be represented by events until 1453.

A very good post. This should really be considered in my opinion.

As for the map, i have already posted a map dated from 1421(not much changed from 1419 to 1421, OE was dealing with Kadi Burhaneddin rebellion during these 2 years) in this forum.

Give Thrace to OE, give Smyrna to OE. Just add some manpower to dates where OE inherited Germiyan and conquered Constantinople. Keep all events relating to the conquest of Constantinople. And to please Byzantine fanboys, add them in as fantasy. Really, i fail to see the difference between Byzantine "Empire" of 1419 and Ragusa situation....

 

[Norrefeldt]

The difference between Ragusa and Bysantium was that it fought a war and desperately tried to get Western allies.
If we were to cut out all minors only lasting 40 years, quite a few would go. There's no big problem with having BYZ in the game, and it's after all historical, and it was one of the biggest historical events for decades! Fodoron have suggested removing the BYZ leaders and it will soon be submitted, and if we reduce the standing army, and fleet (I cannot say if it's justified or not), along with the event to cede Thrace if allied to OE or muslim, then I dare say we can have the historical setup, and historical development.

 

[niceta]

To me this is an unproblem :wacko:
both in agceep game and mymap game 99% OE conquer BYZ (with CoT)...
and very often in before the 1453 date...
Just in the Player games the life is easier than normal.