Ottomans 1.5

[unmerged(177849)]

The advantage of a non-iron man game - I experimented some, and, while I can (probably briefly) maintain Greek as an accepted culture, I lose Turkish - ironically, since it is 16% versus around 11% for Greek culture. But since it was "primary" rather than "accepted," on the shift I guess it checks against the 20% requirement rather than the 10% requirement.

I could probably maintain Turkish as accepted too by releasing a couple vassals (chiefly Persia, which I just annexed), but at some point the cost gets too great for the benefit.

Though I don't currently have a huge navy, so THAT at least isn't an issue.

But if I keep getting those stab hits, I may decide to do it anyway, with or without Turkish as an accepted culture (It occurs to me I could also do some cultural conversions before the shift to help get Turkish up to 20%, but again there are cost/benefit issues. And in the LONG run, if I conquer as much as I intend to, Turkish will probably slip below 10% anyway.)

Or maybe I'll just start up my Timurids--->Moghuls game.

Edit - also I am not sure why I was able to do the shift. I just annexed Novograd, without taking the other Russian cultural provinces (again, I was just experimenting), so Russian was around 14% - less than Turkish - why was I allowed to do the shift?

 

[brifbates]

Edit - also I am not sure why I was able to do the shift. I just annexed Novograd, without taking the other Russian cultural provinces (again, I was just experimenting), so Russian was around 14% - less than Turkish - why was I allowed to do the shift?

The check for culture conversion is total number of cored provinces, the check for culture acceptance is % of base tax (may be tax base which includes buildings, I'm not sure on that). So, in order to culture shift you just need to have more provinces of that specific culture than any other single culture even if they are all 1 base tax dumps. So 21 Russian provinces works if you have no more than 20 of any other culture even if the 20 Greek are worth twice as much as the 21 Russian..

 

[Moocats]

I do wonder; As Ottomans, what approach are you using to vassalize Granada later?

Are you creating an alliance with them, waiting for a Castile attack; ten during the war seizing a province so you can then use diplomatic annexation on Granada. Or instead attack Granada and force vassal? Vassal feeding Granada won't work if they don't have claims on Castilian provinces, right?

If so; I've never seen a vassal fabricate claims before.

 

[Colossal_Elk]

Just make claims, and DOW whoever. If you lose a war with anyone at ANY time you are doing something very, very horribly wrong.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I do wonder; As Ottomans, what approach are you using to vassalize Granada later?

Are you creating an alliance with them, waiting for a Castile attack; ten during the war seizing a province so you can then use diplomatic annexation on Granada. Or instead attack Granada and force vassal? Vassal feeding Granada won't work if they don't have claims on Castilian provinces, right?

If so; I've never seen a vassal fabricate claims before.

I waited for Castille to attack (I had to wait an unusually long time before they did), and tried to force peace which was of course refused. In the ensuing war, I took one province from Spain, and was then able to diplomatically vassalize Granada. Annexed them long ago. And no, I was not able to feed them first, as they made no claims on other provinces (that seems to be a matter of luck - that is, luck before the vassalization. I agree I've never seen it afterwards, contrary to the above comment).

I did manage to ally Aragon before the war, and they did come in on my side, but they mainly cost me war score by losing battles against Castille. But by that time - it was around 1470 as I recall - I was so strong that I didn't really need them. Stomped Spain a couple of times since, I have 6 or 7 provinces total in southern Spain now, but since I wasn't really aiming to stop them from colonizing, I haven't continued the re-re-conquista> Yet. I will at some point.

No PU between Spain and Aragon either, and they, plus Portugal, always seem to be fighting each other. Spain and Aragon also keep getting pulled into wars in France, with/against Burgundy/France.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Mid 1570s and conquest has slowed down a bit - partly from fewer opportunities to use vassals. And part of THAT is situational - I already "used up" some of the better ones - Ukraine, Novograd, Persia. But part of it - and you can tell from this that I've played mainly Catholics - is that the pace of annexations is slower because legitimacy increases much more slowly without a bunch of Cardinals. Without being able to "turn over" my vassals quickly, I have fewer opportunities to feed (or diplo vassalize) new ones.

Of course with Ottoman low coring time I could be going crazy with direct conquest, but I am being overly conservative to avoid coalitions.

Next dilemma is idea group 4. I had planned to pick a military one, as I am wasting military points, but religion beckons for a number of reasons.

 

[unmerged(92645)]

Fair enough:

1. DHE means Dynamic Historical Event
2. There is a DHE in the mamelukes file (flavor_mam) that can give an "Annex CB" to the Ottomans against the Mamelukes meaning that with 100% warscore, annexation of the whole Mameluk state will be possible (see below for the code, from the wiki)
   
   Spoiler

   The Embassy to the West[edit]Can only fire once 
   Trigger: 
   
   Country is Persia 
   Year is at least 1500 
   Year is less than 1520 
   The Mamluks exists 
   Venice exists 
   Ottomans exists 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Persia: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Venice: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Persia: 
   Is a neighbor of Ottomans 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is a neighbor of Ottomans 
   Persia: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   Venice: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   Ottomans: 
   Owns Serbia 
   Owns Constantinople 
   Owns Athens 
   Ottomans: 
   Has an opinion of less than 0 with Persia 
   Has at least 1 ports 
   Mean time to happen 
   
   Base mean time to happen of 36 months 
   Option: Send the emissaries.: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   The Mamluks: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.18 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Ottomans: 
   Adds the opinion modifier "Persian Scheming" towards our country 
   Option: We can not ally with the Christians!: 
   
   Changes piety by 5% 
   The Anti-Ottoman Coalition[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Send the emissaries to Venice: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   Venice: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.19 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: It is too much of a risk: 
   
   Changes piety by 5% 
   The Anti-Ottoman Coalition[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Agree to the coalition: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   The Mamluks: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.20 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: It is too much of a risk: 
   
   Changes prestige by -5 
   The Emissaries return with good news[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: We will form the coalition: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 100 
   Hidden effect: 
   Venice: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.21 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Persia: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.21 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Ottomans: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.22 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Tooltip: 
   Persia: 
   Forms a coalition against Ottomans 
   Venice: 
   Forms a coalition against Ottomans 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: This is too much of a gamble: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 0 
   Changes piety by 5% 
   Coalition formed![edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Let's hope this is good news!: 
   
   Changes prestige by 5 
   Coalition against the Ottoman Empire[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Cairo must be sacked!: 
   
   Gives the Annexation War casus belli against The Mamluks 
   The Mamluks: 
   Every owned province: 
   Adds claim to Ottomans 
   Changes national manpower reserves by 12 months worth 
   Changes war exhaustion by -5

3. Basically the conditions are in the first event, that fires to Persia:
   • It can happened between 1500 and 1520
   • Persia, the Mamelukes, Venice and the Ottomans should exist
   • Persia, the Mamelukes and Venice should not be in a coalition
   • Persia and the Mamelukes should be neighbour of the Ottomans
   • Persia, the Mamelukes and Venice should not be allied to the Ottomans
   • The Ottomans should own Athens, Serbia and Constantinople
   • Relations of the Ottomans with Persia should be below 0
   • Persia should own a port.
4. The event will pop in Persia with a MMTH of 36 months (3 years) so the window is quite narrow, better to have everything done in 1500 and cross fingers.
5. Afterwards, the events will continue in the Mamelukes and Venice with a very low risk that everyone involved reject forming a coalition against the Ottomans.

Is the DHE guaranteed to fire if you meet all the conditions within the time period? I had everything set in 1499 and was waiting all the way through 1519 before I finally got the CB, but it was fairly stressful waiting and making sure nobody died or lost neighboring provinces.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Given the very specific conditions, the fact that even an Ottoman empire focusing elsewhere can eat most of the Mamalukes well before the event fires, AND the fact that Persia is just tailor made for releasing one province & feeding - I don't think I see the point of trying to get the event to fire.

 

[lordelenath]

I'm trying to get the DHE while having Persia as a vassal. Making sure they don't like you is pretty easy - the only thing holding my expansion back right now is the fact that neither the Mamelukes nor Venice may be part of a coalition. And annexing + re-releasing the Mamelukes is going to spare you a lot of trouble and admin and/or diplomatic relations.

 

[LastSalian]

I do wonder; As Ottomans, what approach are you using to vassalize Granada later?

I created an alliance as soon as the game started. Couldn't diplo-vassalize them, but it might be better as they got fed with Portugal and Castile. They own ~50% of the Iberian peninsula now, and most of those provinces are now Sunni. Still year ~1690 and didn't get a PU, though :| Also, despite it highly slowed down Portugal's and Castile's colonization, Great Britain and Netherlands took that role anyway :|

It's easier at the beginning when Ottoman troops are way better than Western. Then it gets tough by year 1600. Anyhow, it helps to get you a truce with some big powers like France, so you can freely attack countries like Venice and other Italian nations.

Protectorates really harm Ottoman's expansion if you are going for Europe conquest, so you have to Westernize. At least it is better now: they removed Nomads from the protectorates non-sense.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I created an alliance as soon as the game started. Couldn't diplo-vassalize them, but it might be better as they got fed with Portugal and Castile. They own ~50% of the Iberian peninsula now, and most of those provinces are now Sunni. Still year ~1690 and didn't get a PU, though :| Also, despite it highly slowed down Portugal's and Castile's colonization, Great Britain and Netherlands took that role anyway :|

It's easier at the beginning when Ottoman troops are way better than Western. Then it gets tough by year 1600. Anyhow, it helps to get you a truce with some big powers like France, so you can freely attack countries like Venice and other Italian nations.

Protectorates really harm Ottoman's expansion if you are going for Europe conquest, so you have to Westernize. At least it is better now: they removed Nomads from the protectorates non-sense.

Feeding them is going to make it harder, not easier to vassalize them.

You need to have a province next to them (or close). The negatives for distance are why you couldn't vassalize them early.

 

[LastSalian]

Agreed. Question: when you vassalize Granada, do they get claims around?

Good thing of keeping Granada free is that, we both are also allied with Morocco, and became the Scourge of Europe and Russia

 

[Saintlukas]

just to address some early question over byzantium vassalizing versus direct annex I have to argue for the later. While vassaling byzanitum and feeding cores is usually a good idea there is really no reason to do it as ottomans, you already have claims on most of their land, you get a decreased core cost from your traditions, and you already own most of the land that byzanitum has cores on.

there really is no logical reason to vassalize them at all as ottobros. Now if your Ramazan on the other hand..... (refer to DDRJake's playthrough)

 

[Saintrl]

Hmm does the selling Andalusian provinces to Granada still work? Was wondering whether you have to get lucky and hope Granada have claims on them or they were owned by Granada in some point thereby allowing the sale.

Assuming you have cores on the lands as of 1.5 you can sell them to Grenada.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

just to address some early question over byzantium vassalizing versus direct annex I have to argue for the later. While vassaling byzanitum and feeding cores is usually a good idea there is really no reason to do it as ottomans, you already have claims on most of their land, you get a decreased core cost from your traditions, and you already own most of the land that byzanitum has cores on.

there really is no logical reason to vassalize them at all as ottobros. Now if your Ramazan on the other hand..... (refer to DDRJake's playthrough)

There are NINE Byzantium cores which are not also Ottoman cores. Most of them you should be able to get before a vassalized Byzantium can be annexed. (I got 7 of 9, all but Rhodes and Cyprus). That's a lot of admin points. Also a little less AE.

There's no logical reason NOT to vassalize them if one is playing Ottoman. (Though of course you should take Constantinople int he peace deal, as the mission gives you a core. Annex Constantinople, vassalize the rest).

 

[Saintlukas]

There are NINE Byzantium cores which are not also Ottoman cores. Most of them you should be able to get before a vassalized Byzantium can be annexed. (I got 7 of 9, all but Rhodes and Cyprus). That's a lot of admin points. Also a little less AE.

There's no logical reason NOT to vassalize them if one is playing Ottoman. (Though of course you should take Constantinople int he peace deal, as the mission gives you a core. Annex Constantinople, vassalize the rest).

I disagree that you are saving all that much admin points, I'll explain below, first refer to this image of Blurlple's cores

Spoiler

Any lands already owned by ottomans can be taken out of calculation, also you can take albania out due to ottomans already having a core, and The Capital since you wanna take that for yourself like you said.

now we have the following possible cores you can gift to byzzie:
trebizond: base tax 3, 60 base admin cost, 25 admin cost post modifiers (ottoman traditions[-33%] + claim[-25%])
rhodes: base tax 4, 80 base admin cost, 34 post modifiers
athens: base tax 5, 100 base admin cost, 42 post modifiers
morea:base tax 3, 60 base admin cost, 25 post modifiers
achaea:base tax 3, 60 base admin cost, 25 post modifiers
corfu: base tax 4, 80 base admin cost, 34 post modifiers
naxos: base tax 3, 60 base admin, 25 post modifiers
crete:base tax 5, 100 base admin cost, 42 post modifiers
cyprus:base tax 8, 160 base admin cost, 67 post modifiers

total admin cost is 319 after added up all the post modifier costs. Frankly IMO that is chump change for the ottomans, especially since you start out with a decent skilled leader and enough wealth to hire advisers right away

with the current conquest CB setup diplomatic spend age is zero so you can't argue that as a claim to vassalize.

to take back byzzie cores you need to fight venice, rhodes, and cyprus (or mamluks since they annex them a lot). Ottomans already have missions to fight egyptions and rhodes that give claims so it's redundant to rely on byzzie to fight them. This leaves only venice who you would be better off fighting on your own since you can manage your navy better then the AI can.

so why waste 30-60 years getting all the cores back for byzzie then go through the annexation process when you can just take them within the time span of 10-30 years for yourself and only at a cheap 319 admin cost? not even enough to take a national idea.

last of all if you take byzzie as a vassal you have to spend time converting all his orthodox heathens lands to sunni after annexation where direct conquest will take care of that problem much quicker and more manageable

your wasting your time as ottobros taking Byzantium as a vassal simple as that, your treasury, army limit, navy limit, and infrastructure will thank you for it

if you really need to pinch your pennies even more you can invest into the admistrative tree line to get an extra -25% for a total of -83% to core creation cost

in short: don't tolerate blurble scum, Paint it lime green instead

 

[lordelenath]

30-60 years? Are you trolling? All of these cores are either held by Venice or subjects or allies of Venice, barring Trebizond and Cyprus - and those are OPMs. The first thing you do as the Ottomans is:

- declare war on all the minors that hold your cores, preferably right off the bat to keep them from getting some stupid alliances. Start building galleys to your force limit.
- take the mission and beat up Byzantium, take Constantinople and vassalize them. Declare on Trebizond.
- fabricate a claim on one of Venice's vassals, declare war. 9.9/10 times Venice will be allied to The Knights.
- take back all of Byzantium's cores (you can ignore Cyprus since that means you'd have to fight the Mamelukes which might take longer)

You exchange the adm cost for about half (or less) the cost in diplo points, and, above all, you avoid the OE and AE. I bet you if you take all of Byzantine's cores for yourself (as claims) that would result in the first coalition right there. Ignoring the fact that you'd actually have to fabricate all these claims first, which would take some time (granted, there're missions, so this isn't a real issue). All the returned cores award you with a nice +200 relation modifier which means you don't even have to keep a diplomatic for improving relations and can start annexation after ten years, which will roughly take between 5-10 years, depending on your taken idea groups (e.g. diplomatic or expansion for diplomatic reputation) and the availability of a +5 advisor. Absolutely worst case this takes 20 years.

Honestly, I don't see any reason at all not to vassalize Byzantium - especially considering you want to fall behind in diplo tech anyway to westernize at some time.

 

[GrenadierSchube]

Hey guys sorry to intrude on your conversation, but what exactly does the ottoman janissary event do? I know it gives military bonuses but I CANT seem to find it anywhere thanks!

 

[Saintlukas]

I don't play ottobros often so my time frame is off, but it's still roughly the same time frame for both approaches if you think about it, as you said yourself a good chunk of the land you get through missions.

The fear of colations is not a concern as ottomans, because frankly the only people who can stand up to you are Austria or a bloc of muslim powers, both of which rarely join up just by taking Byzantium lands, the people who ally them the most early game are serbia or Bosnia who are hardly a threat.

All your other points though I wont' contest since It's a matter of personal taste from there, I don't agree with ottomans westernizing because I think it ruins some of the challenge for them, I also just don't like the idea of byzantium existing period, I like to see them die ASAP.

I will argue however any "gains" seen with vassalizing byzantium are minor and your time is better served taking the land ASAP, converting it, and using it right away to get dem buildings/naval forcelimit up


as for grenadier: it's an event so look in the events folder for ottobros

 

[GrenadierSchube]

i've looked for it, bought the game on steam, and seem to not be able to find it at all! sorry i sound like an idiot