Ottomans 1.5

[MiniaAr]

Hmm does the selling Andalusian provinces to Granada still work? Was wondering whether you have to get lucky and hope Granada have claims on them or they were owned by Granada in some point thereby allowing the sale.

It works, I tested it in 1.5 already.
Grenada put claims on Andalusia and Cadiz while stil independent, I took those provinces from Castille as Portugal and was able to feed them to Grenada after I vassalised them.
Then as a vassal, Grenada put claims on Jaen and Cordoba, which I intend to give them in the next war against Castille.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Thanks. Some of this is outdated, but most of it helpful.

I'm almost exactly 10 years in. Nice start I think, though an early war with the Mamalukes has torched my manpower. But I have:

(1) All my cores (including of course Constantinople);
(2) A Byzantium vassal with its original 2 provinces plus Corfu, Crete, Athens and Trebezond;
(3) One province Croatia and Syria vassals, ready for feeding.

All this and only the Mamelukes have entered a coalition against me.

I am still considering intervening in Spain, but haven't had to yet as Castille has been distracted by other wars.

Only real mistake was forgetting to improve relations with Byzantium, so my annexation of them will be delayed a couple of years.

Cyprus and expanding my Syrian vassal are probably my next priorities, aside from opportunistically coming to Granada's defense when that proves necessary. Also probably the Balkans.

Edit - on second thought, I need to follow my earlier plan and head north. I just annexed Bessarabia, and made a claim on one of Crimea's provinces (they took 2 provinces from Genoa, so they are too big to diplo vassalize). In the first war I can take 2-3 provinces to cut them down to size so that I can militarily vassalize them in the second war. Then Lithuania/Poland to create and feed the Ukraine. Hopefully without getting crazy coalitions against me.

Oh, and I was able to ally Aragon, though it may end up being a mistake, as they are currently being crushed by an alliance of France, Venice and some others. Thankfully I am not involved in that war.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

It works, I tested it in 1.5 already.
Grenada put claims on Andalusia and Cadiz while stil independent, I took those provinces from Castille as Portugal and was able to feed them to Grenada after I vassalised them.
Then as a vassal, Grenada put claims on Jaen and Cordoba, which I intend to give them in the next war against Castille.

Very luck based. In my game, Granada has no claims on any Castiliian provinces yet (now about a dozen years in). So not a strategy that you can depend upon - but certainly one to take advantage of when you can.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Having a lot of fun with this game. It's now 1488, and I have my foothold in Spain (a little late) and have pushed north successfully toward Muscovy. Still not quite bordering Muscovy, and I suspect that they will be a challenge when I do.

Interesting (lack of) coalition dynamics. I've made clear in other threads my dissatisfaction with coalition mechanics, and certainly it does have its problems. But for a nation like the Ottomans, played carefully (but still quite expansionist) you can mostly avoid coalitions. Well, at least so far. Despite adding 57 provinces (including vassals) over 44 years.

Oh, Granada? Despite 40 plus years of independence, not a single claim on any Spanish provinces. So any further expansion into Spain is going to have to be self cored.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Beating up Muscovy in my first war against them. Took a long time - 4 years, roughly - because I was playing very cautiously because of fog of war (no provinces revealed at start; DOWed Ryazan, with whom they had a PU). Got my war score to the point where they will peace out for close to 100%.

Not sure what to take from them in the first war. I don't have any claims on them, so I want to limit direct conquest. Also want to keep AE down - the last thing I want is a coalition between Muscovy and Lithuania (though religion difference should help there), at least until I take one more chunk out of Lithuania. Tentatively I plan on taking:

(1) Vassalize Ryazan - I am over the DR limit already, but this (as opposed to just annexing the provinces) will save me coring costs - less of an issue with Ottomans but still an issue - and a little AE.
(2) Annex Voronozhev (sp?) - working on surrounding Moscow, and gives me a nice platform for further claims.
(3) Release Perm - I can't vassalize diplomatically, but it will cut Muscovy off from Siberia, which they would soon colonize (they took expansion and it is 1498).

Alternatives would include annexing rather than vassalizing Ryazan, and/or taking a Novograd province and releasing it. The latter is tempting, but perhaps should be left for war #2, and then fed in war #3.

Thoughts?

Also, the tentative plan is to keep working on Russia for 2 more wars - that should cripple them but good - and then (probably around 1515) start pushing hard for India.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

So interest in this thread has dissipated, but I do want to emphasize just how well the "push toward Moscow" strategy has worked. As predicted, I won my third war with Moscovy in 1515. I have a huge Novograd vassal and Moscow itself surrounded by owned territory and a Ryazan Vassal. Perm is also my vassal (acquired in 1518), and there isn't much of Moscovy left.

All this without compromising other expansion too much. Yes, pushes in other directions have been limited a little, but I still have about half of the Mamelukes, and a huge Persian vassal to the east (though it wasn't huge until 1522 after a war with the Timurids). The Balkans are mine of course up to the border with Hungary. I have only 5 provinces in Spain, Muscovy took priority over that, but I do have Cordoba (needed for the unite Islam decision).

Now my only dilemma is whether to take another crack as Spain in the near future, or just concentrate on pushing east, south, and further into Eygpt. Though a couple more wars against Muscovy may also be necessary, one to take Moscow itself (they haven't moved their capital so I'll need a war just for that) and one to take the one colony they managed to build before I forced them to release Perm.

My only problem is that I'm not far enough behind in tech to westernize. My third idea group will be expansion, and that should (I hope) suck up enough diplo points that I'll be able to westernize at or before military tech 17.

Anyway you can probably tell that I am obsessed with cutting Moscovy/Russia down to size early, but it just makes eventual expansion into Asia SO much easier.

Edit - may get around to posting a screen shot - I have the most ugly borders imaginable - corridors through only partly conquered territory to Perm and Persia for example.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Here's my thoughts on idea groups, btw (in order):

Diplomacy - so good, and you need to spend diplo points for eventual westernization.
Admin - for coring and, even for the Ottomans, mercs. Yes, manpower is a problem even for them, early at least, because you are almost onstantly at war. NOT first - your early conquests for the most part do not need to be self cored.
Expansion - need the capstone for Asia, but a lot of the rest comes in handy also (I am currently 3 over my DR cap for example). And ... you still need to spend diplo points to get far enough behind in tech to westernize. (edit - and, oh yeah, I'll eventually colonize Siberia. Obviously expansion rather than exploration will delay that until the fog of war lifts, but I can't really afford to take both and expansion is really mandatory for expanding into Asia.)
Offensive - could make an argument for defensive or quality, but forced march just SO good.
Religion - seems late, but with piety near 100%, and the bonus for religious unity, you arguably don't need religion at all. But I'll take it to help with unify Islam.

Last 3 don't matter much. Probably will take quality, then ... don't know, seven and eight come so late anyway.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I think I'm kind of talking with myself at this point, but I do have another question. Still having much fun (1536, about 10 years of further expansion in almost all directions, another war with Moscovy, a couple more provinces ripped from Spain, Messina captured, Kazan diplomatically vassalized and then fed 4 provinces, as well as more local expansion south and east, etc.

But one problem on the horizon. Still nowhere near behind enough in tech to westernize. I did make the mistake of gaining one diplo tech, that's part of it. But now I'm at 11/4/11, only 5 behind my leading neighbor (Spain). 3 more expansion ideas will soak up a bunch of diplo points, but it's starting to look like I might need to waste some admin or military points to lag there also (I don't have quite enough excess ducats yet to go on a building spree to use the points that way, though of course have already built a lot).

Any advice on that point? I guess if I stay even in military and admin, I should be able to westernize when a neighbor hits 12/12/12. Maybe I just need to be patient.

Edit - Pretty sure I should stay at 11 admin tech. I can dump a bunch of points into admin ideas (I only took the first 3 so far). I also need to review the new westernization mechanics to plan properly.

 

[lordelenath]

Just keep lagging in diplo (three ideas might be enough) and start stacking monarch points, you want about 1.000 in every category if possible. I'd advice to hold of spending points until you're at about 1.000 and invest them only if you start hitting the wall (apart from military). This way you'll either stack up neighbor bonus or will manage to lack behind just enough to westernize. You don't have to prepare for that any more to be honest, as long as you make sure you've got a decent amount of monarch points in every category. Everything above 999 will be wiped on the first of the following month or when you invest some points of the respective category.

If you can get your hands on a theologian, the -3 revolt risk is kinda nice while westernizing, although not really needed. You should obviously try to be in a relatively safe spot (some manpower, some money, no huge coalitions about to beat you up). You can easily beat up some smaller enemies though, it's not really that dangerous anymore.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Just keep lagging in diplo (three ideas might be enough) and start stacking monarch points, you want about 1.000 in every category if possible. I'd advice to hold of spending points until you're at about 1.000 and invest them only if you start hitting the wall (apart from military). This way you'll either stack up neighbor bonus or will manage to lack behind just enough to westernize. You don't have to prepare for that any more to be honest, as long as you make sure you've got a decent amount of monarch points in every category. Everything above 999 will be wiped on the first of the following month or when you invest some points of the respective category.

Thanks, very helpful. If I understand correctly, if I manage full progress towards westernization it will take 6 years and 8 months (as Ottomans)? That's 2400/30, 80 months. Correct?

 

[lordelenath]

I don't know exactly how many points you need as the Ottomans, but that sounds about right. You could try to have a bit more admin stacked, to immediately buy back a bit of stability. You don't need +3 anymore to start the progress though, I think it's either +1 or 0, not quite sure right now. You should be prepared that your advisors will be much more expensive during westernization, it's a +50% modifier as far as I remember.

 

[TheRevanchist]

I wouldn't stress out too much about it at this point. Ottomans don't really start to fall behind western units until much later. Like was mentioned before, just keep lagging in diplo points.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I wouldn't stress out too much about it at this point. Ottomans don't really start to fall behind western units until much later. Like was mentioned before, just keep lagging in diplo points.

Yeah, but I want to get it over with. But still no reason to stress - I just started it in 1550. Has already slightly slowed down my conquests (preparing for it, that is), and will continue to do so, but no reason to stop entirely. I have a revolt risk advisor, so my revolt risks are quite low, almost non existent. I suspect the biggest challenge will be the yearly events. I have a ton of manpower, ducats and monarch points saved, and legitimacy and prestige are high, though not quite maxed.

I'm going to concentrate now on getting the provinces I need for unifying Islam (I have 7 of 14), with diversions into Christian nations, mainly to keep piety up. I expect the biggest problem may be getting 100% Islam. I have a bunch of tough to convert Orthodox provinces. I may need to wait until I get religion for that, which will be quite a long while.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Westernization was a bit of an anticlimax. Very easy.

One funny thing happened - a crusade against me. Not the mechanic I was used to; basically a bunch of nations, including Austria (my strongest remaining opponent), entered a war defensively. Thought I was fighting just Lithuania & Sweden, but instead it ended up very much like a coalition war. Not complaining; it was fun. Though given that I was westernizing at the time, I ended up giving Sweden some gold to end it.

For uniting Islam, Samarkand will be the toughest province to get. (I now have 9 of 14.) But I suspect I'll have all 14 long before I can convert all my Christian provinces. Especially if I wait till my 5th idea group for religion.

Ottomans are really easy mode, no surprise, almost too easy. Though I'm loving the low coring times & costs.

 

[TheRevanchist]

Spoiler alert but uniting Islam is probably even more anticlimactic than westernization.

With western tech you should be able to eat your way up to Samarkand easily.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Spoiler alert but uniting Islam is probably even more anticlimactic than westernization.

With western tech you should be able to eat your way up to Samarkand easily.

Well, yes, not hard in the sense that its a challenge. Just time consuming - a long slog to do it without ruinous AE - after all, I'll either need to surround it and then take it, or whittle the Timurids down to the point that I can vassalize them. Though I've already taken Persia and Baluchistan from them. Annexing Persia now, which is necessary so I can core what I take from the Timurids going forward.

And yeah, I expect it to be anti climatic. Given that I keep stoping playing around 1610 or so, it may not even happen. My next project is (tentatively) Timurids-->Mughals.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

So it's around 1565 or so - real life has intervened, slowing me down. I'm starting to get some of those bad events - incompetent bureaucracy, giving me a stability hit, has occurred fairly frequently - at least I assume that it is nation specific, as I have not seen it before. So I'm contemplating a tag switch. Reluctantly, as I would rather stick with the Ottomans.

The fairly obvious choice, given the configuration of my empire, would be Russia. Any reason not to? I keep my NIs, correct (mostly for the better IMO)? Am I missing something?

 

[brifbates]

So it's around 1565 or so - real life has intervened, slowing me down. I'm starting to get some of those bad events - incompetent bureaucracy, giving me a stability hit, has occurred fairly frequently - at least I assume that it is nation specific, as I have not seen it before. So I'm contemplating a tag switch. Reluctantly, as I would rather stick with the Ottomans.

The fairly obvious choice, given the configuration of my empire, would be Russia. Any reason not to? I keep my NIs, correct (mostly for the better IMO)? Am I missing something?

Well, the obvious issue with a tag switch to Russia is the culture shift. You may also take a massive income hit depending on how your trade is set up and what you own when you move your capital to do the culture shift and/or the admin and stab cost of a double capital move coupled with the culture shift. You keep your superior NIs but the culture group change could play merry havoc with your income since all those same-culture group Greek/Arab ports become wrong culture ports (a significant naval force limit impact) as well as the other issues potentially created with a change in primary culture group turning most of your empire from yellow culture to red.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

I THINK I'm in good shape with the culture shift. Partly because I haven't really optimized trade (intentionally getting way behind in diplo tech reduces the incentive to do so). I should retain Turkish as an accepted culture - not sure about Greek (do I lose it if it is <20 but >10?), but I'm going to be losing that soon anyway. Assuming that I integrate Novograd (I have to in order to form Russia), and conquer the remaining roughly 10 remaining Russian provinces (ditto), and integrate the Ukraine (not mandatory, but I get the cultural union, correct?), I should be in BETTER shape than I am now in terms of accepted/primary culture, with tons of provinces in the slavic group (really almost all of them, along with the turkish as an accepted culture. I lose the other turkish group cultures, but they are only same group, not as good as primary or accepted or cultural union.

Again, am I missing something?

 

[brifbates]

I THINK I'm in good shape with the culture shift. Partly because I haven't really optimized trade (intentionally getting way behind in diplo tech reduces the incentive to do so). I should retain Turkish as an accepted culture - not sure about Greek (do I lose it if it is <20 but >10?), but I'm going to be losing that soon anyway. Assuming that I integrate Novograd (I have to in order to form Russia), and conquer the remaining roughly 10 remaining Russian provinces (ditto), and integrate the Ukraine (not mandatory, but I get the cultural union, correct?), I should be in BETTER shape than I am now in terms of accepted/primary culture, with tons of provinces in the slavic group (really almost all of them, along with the turkish as an accepted culture. I lose the other turkish group cultures, but they are only same group, not as good as primary or accepted or cultural union.

Again, am I missing something?

Well, Greek would just drop to same group at <10% without the switch instead of wrong culture. You'll get the cultural union on the east Slavic group as Russia so integrating Ukraine would be pretty much a no-brainer. The biggest issue would be your naval force limit because almost all of your ports will be different culture from your nation (there are very few Russian ports). In EU 3 that would decrease your naval force limit by up to 50% (not sure what the force limit modifiers for culture are in EU 4 and they aren't on the wiki). Depending on your naval composition this can be brutally expensive. If you are swimming in ducats and/or don't have much of a naval presence then no big deal, if you are pushing your force limit with a bunch of heavy ships to compete with the western naval powers at sea and not swimming in cash then it could be a massive problem.