Ottomans 1.5

[unmerged(177849)]

I started a thread a couple weeks ago on Ottomans 1.4, and got a ton of good advice. I didn't get past the first couple years with that game - distracted by my Italy game - and I now wonder what's changed for Ottoman strategy in 1.5.

This is a conventional Sunni Ottoman game. No HRE, no WC. Just a continental game with the goal of controlling all of Islam & exporting it to most of Europe and Asia. No new world.

My conclusion based on my own experience and the advice in that thread was that an early push north to Moscow was a top priority after consolidating my core, with a subsidiary advance into Spain and possibly Sicily. The Mamelukes and pushing east can wait a little, though opportunistic early thrusts in those directions are possible also. Other than Spain/Sicily, Europe would wait until after westernization.

I'm thinking now that the Spanish and Sicilian push may need to be delayed because of AE concerns. That MAY also effect the push towards Moscow - which would have to go through Poland, the Crimea, and Lithuania.

Thoughts? Anyone with 1.5 Ottoman experience want to give me some advice?

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Oh, and a fairly small question about the starting moves - better to fully annex Byzantium, or annex Constantinople & vassalize the rest? The former is faster, and doesn't require you to have a diplomat tied up annexing Byzantium, the latter saves a few admin points for coring.

 

[etf2]

In my opinion it's better to vassalize, because they have several cores to collect around the mediterranean (athens, trebizond, +5 islands)

 

[TyrannisUmbra]

The latter. You can then go to war with all the nations around you and force them to Give Core To Byzantium in the peace deal, which will ultimately save you probably around 1/2 to 2/3 of a tech level's worth of admin points.

 

[2gutter67]

I started up a game in between writing an essay today and my god the coalitions. I took out Albania and the Byzantines as fast as I could (probably about 1447) and as soon as I annexed both a coalition of Venice and Hungary formed against me. Neither of them were below -80 opinion. Then I decided to take the mission which basically asks you to annex Aq Quonlyu (? sorry on the spelling but it's the 3PM to the east of your nation). After I annexed them the Mamelukes joined the coalition as well and their opinion was -135. Now I'm all for each of these traditional and regional rivalries, but the fact that all three of these powers who absolutely hated each other hated me enough to join a coalition together by 1450 was enough to give me some pause.

I spent the next 10 years helping my good friend the Crimean Khanate to do their own expansion through about 3 wars. However one thing I noticed was that every time I began to actually do a lot of damage to our enemies there would be a peace deal where no one really gained or lost anything at all except maybe some gold. After they became my vassal they finally calmed down thank god. During this time I took the decision of dissolving the Patriarchy just to see what the effect would be upon the coalition. No one else joined the coalition but the nearby Orthodox states went all the way to -200 opinion.

Other than that I can't say because my paper took priority. But the coalitions sure did form quickly and it was early enough that I was more than a little frightened for my early game prospects.

 

[ghostcaesar]

alternative to fighting muscovy early, you can simply take exansion first or second, and cut through Nogai to block them in Siberia. Sieze colony can be useful

 

[mustachewarfare]

Oh, and a fairly small question about the starting moves - better to fully annex Byzantium, or annex Constantinople & vassalize the rest? The former is faster, and doesn't require you to have a diplomat tied up annexing Byzantium, the latter saves a few admin points for coring.

after you lay siege on Albania move your troops near Byzantium border and declare war on them.

When you gain 100% score on Byzantium take Constantinople and Athene and vassalize Byzantium. Then sell Athene to Byzantium. The reason to vassalize Byzantium is that you can save good chunk of adm points by doing this. Byzantium has lot of cores around itself (i.e. cyprus) and when you conquer those territory you can just sell those territory.

And after 10 year from your vassalization, you just gobble up those territory (yummy)

I think it is very advantageous to save adm point early game for ottoman because
1. to boost stability (at least get+1 stability before taking over constantinople. so enacting to make constantinople as your capital will move your stability to +2)
2. to take adm idea group (take adaptability and ottoman without being HRE gain -83% core creation discount - under the assumption you have claim on that territory)

and it is easy to save adm point early game because ottoman has neighbours where ottoman core exists.

 

[MiniaAr]

I started up a game in between writing an essay today and my god the coalitions. I took out Albania and the Byzantines as fast as I could (probably about 1447) and as soon as I annexed both a coalition of Venice and Hungary formed against me. Neither of them were below -80 opinion. Then I decided to take the mission which basically asks you to annex Aq Quonlyu (? sorry on the spelling but it's the 3PM to the east of your nation). After I annexed them the Mamelukes joined the coalition as well and their opinion was -135. Now I'm all for each of these traditional and regional rivalries, but the fact that all three of these powers who absolutely hated each other hated me enough to join a coalition together by 1450 was enough to give me some pause.

I spent the next 10 years helping my good friend the Crimean Khanate to do their own expansion through about 3 wars. However one thing I noticed was that every time I began to actually do a lot of damage to our enemies there would be a peace deal where no one really gained or lost anything at all except maybe some gold. After they became my vassal they finally calmed down thank god. During this time I took the decision of dissolving the Patriarchy just to see what the effect would be upon the coalition. No one else joined the coalition but the nearby Orthodox states went all the way to -200 opinion.

Other than that I can't say because my paper took priority. But the coalitions sure did form quickly and it was early enough that I was more than a little frightened for my early game prospects.

Yeah it looks a lot like a 1.3.2 start. Before annexing Albania, use one of your diplomat to improve relations with either Hungary or Venice, from day one. Use your second one for declarations of wars, alliances and RMs (with no more than 3 countries), and peace treaties.
Take the "City of Men's desire" mission and take the province + vassalise Byzantium (useful for giving them their cores back). Normally, Hungary won't have joined a coalition but maybe Venice did.
When you are sieging Constantinople and Southern Greece, leave only siege armies and take your main stack to annex isolated turkish minors. Be quick about it or Mamelukes/Aq Qoyonlu (+Golden Horde usually) will protect them.
Instead of improving relations with Hungary, send a diplomat to improve with the Mamelukes, so that your conquests in Anatolia are not to badly received.

During that time, you should build your navy to forcelimits, with only galleys + enough cogs to transport half a stack. This is in case Castille goes after Grenada. Use Fleet Basing rights with Algiers once the war starts and transport most of your armies to Oran. Desembark in Almeria and reinforce with all you have.
Usually, you should have better military tech, better troops, a better general and Almeria is a Defensive province. Beat them but be careful about pursuing, this might be worth more to remain steady in the defense of Grenada. Take one Andalusian province or two in the peace (with Andalusia itself being the best). Vassalise Grenada before giving them the province (this should be a claim of theirs). You can use that time to forge a claim to a nearby province for a second devastating war where you take all the other Andalusian provinces (Cordoba, Jaen, Murcia, Cadiz) for your vassal Grenada.
As you can only sell one province at a time, consider converting some of them (inquisitor + being full pious will help). This will help your vassal keep control of them.

When you go expanding anywhere, use your diplomats to improve relations with neighbours of your target, with countries of the same culture or cultural group/same religion, before and during the war. For example when going after Naples (if they are independent), improve relations with the Papal States and Aragon preemptively. DIP tech 6 for building an embassy is kind of a blessing here, build it quick. Also, consider Diplomacy as your first idea group, this is a solid choice.

The takeover of the Mamelukes seems better with the DHE than the missions, once again (to avoid coalition gore). For that, you'll need an existing and bordering Persia, with access to the sea and relations with you under 0, and Venice/Mamekules not in a coalition against you.
That's where not taking lands from the Mams + taking only Byzantium cores from Venice will help (it generates no AE). Then simply be prepared with all conditions met ideally in 1500 and annex the Mamelukes in one war (you've got to control 100% of their country). Release them as vassals immediatly afterwards. An alternative is to core everything and deal with an overbloated OE, but be sure to have taken Administrative + 2 ideas as your second idea group (reducing coring costs reduces coring times) and to have a sizable chunk of ADM points stored.

Hope some of this will help.

 

[bradleygardner]

Any thoughts on which is better Orthodox vs. Islam? I think I'm going to stop trying the Urbino gambit, but I'm wondering for a WC game whether becoming the HRE is a must?

 

[xyra]

Any thoughts on which is better Orthodox vs. Islam? I think I'm going to stop trying the Urbino gambit, but I'm wondering for a WC game whether becoming the HRE is a must?

fighting in the HRE is hard, you get more AE and thus a larger coalition and more downtime. If you are aiming for WC, go orthodox or dismantle the HRE early. but joining the empire gives you a boost AND you don't have to fight for a lot of high tax provinces

 

[lordelenath]

I think every WC is made a lot easier by becoming HRE - which is something I absolutely hate and got me to start a personal feud on this damn thing. I'm dismantling it in every single game now, just because I can't stand it anymore that the HRE is the solution to every challenge or problem you face in this game. :-(

 

[TuranianGhazi]

For my Hegemony or Colonial Ottoman attempt, so far I've encountered the following:
1) Creating a vassal Portugal and letting it colonize for me is sweet since now upon annexation, I'll get all its dependencies, like colonies as well!
However
2) Pushing the Alliance with Aragon that is needed for my Iberian operation strategy has been elusive. The -100 Great Power modifier and that entire new GP feature threw a wrench in my plans for Iberia. Though I just read on one thread from a PDS AI programmer that the malus value will be decreased, thankfully.

Haven't had a coalition form against me yet, so either I'm playing carefully or I don't see any issue with coalitions yet. Biggest issue is the GP malus which just seems too strong, especially for early game, and given how much GP standing fluctuates in the first 50 years or so. Hopefully, GP standings will solidify after 50 years and politics and GP handling will make more sense.

@mustachewarfare: Taking BOTH Constantinople along with Athens put me over WS limit for Byzantium force-vassalization though. I don't know how you were able to get Athens as well. I'll try next game, but I doubt that's possible.

 

[c01mhth10ch]

The takeover of the Mamelukes seems better with the DHE than the missions, once again (to avoid coalition gore). For that, you'll need an existing and bordering Persia, with access to the sea and relations with you under 0, and Venice/Mamekules not in a coalition against you.
That's where not taking lands from the Mams + taking only Byzantium cores from Venice will help (it generates no AE). Then simply be prepared with all conditions met ideally in 1500 and annex the Mamelukes in one war (you've got to control 100% of their country).

It's possible to annex whole Mamelukes in one war? What is 'DHE' and could you please elaborate more on that "takeover plan", I can't seem to understand your it

Thanks.

 

[xyra]

It's possible to annex whole Mamelukes in one war? What is 'DHE' and could you please elaborate more on that "takeover plan", I can't seem to understand your it

Thanks.

it should be 2 wars.

DHE is Dynamic historical events. and there is an eventchain that involves mamluks, venice, persia and ottomans. If all conditions are fullfilled, ottomans get claims on all mamluk provinces + a special CB.

 

[MiniaAr]

It's possible to annex whole Mamelukes in one war? What is 'DHE' and could you please elaborate more on that "takeover plan", I can't seem to understand your it

Thanks.

Fair enough:

1. DHE means Dynamic Historical Event
2. There is a DHE in the mamelukes file (flavor_mam) that can give an "Annex CB" to the Ottomans against the Mamelukes meaning that with 100% warscore, annexation of the whole Mameluk state will be possible (see below for the code, from the wiki)
   
   Spoiler

   The Embassy to the West[edit]Can only fire once 
   Trigger: 
   
   Country is Persia 
   Year is at least 1500 
   Year is less than 1520 
   The Mamluks exists 
   Venice exists 
   Ottomans exists 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Persia: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Venice: 
   Is not in a coalition 
   Persia: 
   Is a neighbor of Ottomans 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is a neighbor of Ottomans 
   Persia: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   Venice: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   The Mamluks: 
   Is not allied with Ottomans 
   Ottomans: 
   Owns Serbia 
   Owns Constantinople 
   Owns Athens 
   Ottomans: 
   Has an opinion of less than 0 with Persia 
   Has at least 1 ports 
   Mean time to happen 
   
   Base mean time to happen of 36 months 
   Option: Send the emissaries.: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   The Mamluks: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.18 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Ottomans: 
   Adds the opinion modifier "Persian Scheming" towards our country 
   Option: We can not ally with the Christians!: 
   
   Changes piety by 5% 
   The Anti-Ottoman Coalition[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Send the emissaries to Venice: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   Venice: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.19 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: It is too much of a risk: 
   
   Changes piety by 5% 
   The Anti-Ottoman Coalition[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Agree to the coalition: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 99 
   The Mamluks: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.20 
   Base mean time to happen of 2 days 
   Randomized by 4 
   Tooltip: 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: It is too much of a risk: 
   
   Changes prestige by -5 
   The Emissaries return with good news[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: We will form the coalition: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 100 
   Hidden effect: 
   Venice: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.21 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Persia: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.21 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Ottomans: 
   Gets the country event: 
   ID is flavor_mam.22 
   Base mean time to happen of 1 days 
   Tooltip: 
   Persia: 
   Forms a coalition against Ottomans 
   Venice: 
   Forms a coalition against Ottomans 
   Changes piety by -5% 
   Option: This is too much of a gamble: 
   
   AI chance: 
   Base chance of 0 
   Changes piety by 5% 
   Coalition formed![edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Let's hope this is good news!: 
   
   Changes prestige by 5 
   Coalition against the Ottoman Empire[edit]Cannot fire randomly 
   Option: Cairo must be sacked!: 
   
   Gives the Annexation War casus belli against The Mamluks 
   The Mamluks: 
   Every owned province: 
   Adds claim to Ottomans 
   Changes national manpower reserves by 12 months worth 
   Changes war exhaustion by -5

3. Basically the conditions are in the first event, that fires to Persia:
   • It can happened between 1500 and 1520
   • Persia, the Mamelukes, Venice and the Ottomans should exist
   • Persia, the Mamelukes and Venice should not be in a coalition
   • Persia and the Mamelukes should be neighbour of the Ottomans
   • Persia, the Mamelukes and Venice should not be allied to the Ottomans
   • The Ottomans should own Athens, Serbia and Constantinople
   • Relations of the Ottomans with Persia should be below 0
   • Persia should own a port.
4. The event will pop in Persia with a MMTH of 36 months (3 years) so the window is quite narrow, better to have everything done in 1500 and cross fingers.
5. Afterwards, the events will continue in the Mamelukes and Venice with a very low risk that everyone involved reject forming a coalition against the Ottomans.

 

[c01mhth10ch]

Thanks for the explanation

So, Venice, Mamaluks and Persia must exist and Persia must have 1 port at least in years between 1500-1520. Ottomans must own Serbia, Constantinople and Athens, Persia and Mamaluks must share border with Ottomans and they must not be either allied with Ottomans or in any coalition whatsoever.

I got it right? And btw, what it the chance for this to trigger if conditions are met?

 

[MiniaAr]

Thanks for the explanation

So, Venice, Mamaluks and Persia must exist and Persia must have 1 port at least in years between 1500-1520. Ottomans must own Serbia, Constantinople and Athens, Persia and Mamaluks must share border with Ottomans and they must not be either allied with Ottomans or in any coalition whatsoever.

I got it right? And btw, what it the chance for this to trigger if conditions are met?

You've got it right, don't forget your relations with Persia should be below 0 (so not a vassal usually).
There is a MTTH of 36 months, which means it will happen on average within 3 years of the conditions being met. Then the AI has a 99% chance of taking the right path.

Also, Venice, Persia and the Mamelukes will be in a coalition against you during the war.

 

[c01mhth10ch]

What about releasing Persia from Timurids as Ottoman vassal, not gonna work?

 

[MiniaAr]

What about releasing Persia from Timurids as Ottoman vassal, not gonna work?

Theoritically it should work if your relations with them are below 0, even as a vassal. But it's not very practical.

 

[BossAsianMafia]

Yeah it looks a lot like a 1.3.2 start. Before annexing Albania, use one of your diplomat to improve relations with either Hungary or Venice, from day one. Use your second one for declarations of wars, alliances and RMs (with no more than 3 countries), and peace treaties.
Take the "City of Men's desire" mission and take the province + vassalise Byzantium (useful for giving them their cores back). Normally, Hungary won't have joined a coalition but maybe Venice did.
When you are sieging Constantinople and Southern Greece, leave only siege armies and take your main stack to annex isolated turkish minors. Be quick about it or Mamelukes/Aq Qoyonlu (+Golden Horde usually) will protect them.
Instead of improving relations with Hungary, send a diplomat to improve with the Mamelukes, so that your conquests in Anatolia are not to badly received.

During that time, you should build your navy to forcelimits, with only galleys + enough cogs to transport half a stack. This is in case Castille goes after Grenada. Use Fleet Basing rights with Algiers once the war starts and transport most of your armies to Oran. Desembark in Almeria and reinforce with all you have.
Usually, you should have better military tech, better troops, a better general and Almeria is a Defensive province. Beat them but be careful about pursuing, this might be worth more to remain steady in the defense of Grenada. Take one Andalusian province or two in the peace (with Andalusia itself being the best). Vassalise Grenada before giving them the province (this should be a claim of theirs). You can use that time to forge a claim to a nearby province for a second devastating war where you take all the other Andalusian provinces (Cordoba, Jaen, Murcia, Cadiz) for your vassal Grenada.
As you can only sell one province at a time, consider converting some of them (inquisitor + being full pious will help). This will help your vassal keep control of them.

When you go expanding anywhere, use your diplomats to improve relations with neighbours of your target, with countries of the same culture or cultural group/same religion, before and during the war. For example when going after Naples (if they are independent), improve relations with the Papal States and Aragon preemptively. DIP tech 6 for building an embassy is kind of a blessing here, build it quick. Also, consider Diplomacy as your first idea group, this is a solid choice.

The takeover of the Mamelukes seems better with the DHE than the missions, once again (to avoid coalition gore). For that, you'll need an existing and bordering Persia, with access to the sea and relations with you under 0, and Venice/Mamekules not in a coalition against you.
That's where not taking lands from the Mams + taking only Byzantium cores from Venice will help (it generates no AE). Then simply be prepared with all conditions met ideally in 1500 and annex the Mamelukes in one war (you've got to control 100% of their country). Release them as vassals immediatly afterwards. An alternative is to core everything and deal with an overbloated OE, but be sure to have taken Administrative + 2 ideas as your second idea group (reducing coring costs reduces coring times) and to have a sizable chunk of ADM points stored.

Hope some of this will help.

Hmm does the selling Andalusian provinces to Granada still work? Was wondering whether you have to get lucky and hope Granada have claims on them or they were owned by Granada in some point thereby allowing the sale.