Ottomania

[grommile]

If someone wants to convert to Orthodoxy as the Ottomans in pursuit of avoiding a late mid-game disaster and lose out on the flavour and bonuses that would be granted to them before said disaster, let them.

Right now, converting to Christianity as the Ottomans is a "memelord shenanigans" thing.

If you tie a disaster to the Ottoman government, and the disaster actually matters, then converting to Christianity (to invalidate the Ottoman government) stops being memelord shenanigans, because it becomes genuinely worthwhile.

(On the other end of the scale, I find the whole "go out of your way trigger Court and Country" nonsense to be evidence of poor design.)

 

[Susan1972]

Okay, lesson learned. Never say anything negative about the Ottomans ever.

Seriously, why does this topic get everyone riled up so much?

 

[grommile]

Seriously, why does this topic get everyone riled up so much?

I blame EU3.

No, seriously.

 

[Susan1972]

I blame EU3.

No, seriously.

I haven't done EU3.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Okay, lesson learned. Never say anything negative about the Ottomans ever.

Seriously, why does this topic get everyone riled up so much?

How many times havw you played as them

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Well u win because of one thing, the Ottomans have not jet taken our capital, bringing them to empire for free and giving them a huge income boost through trade, plus in less than 20 years, if u have such a death alliance of minors u can win, after that, it will be hard. The best way to kill them, is Budget Monks push in the first 5 Years where u can get all cores back an war raps asap, with just the knights and albania.

I was just replying to a post that claimed you can't beat them anymore as Byzantium.

 

[Ferdinand_Bardamu]

Okay, lesson learned. Never say anything negative about the Ottomans ever.

Seriously, why does this topic get everyone riled up so much?

From 1.30 - 1.32 I never saw France or Russia reach their historical borders. No one complained.

Meanwhile if the Ottomans don't annex Egypt in one war or border Vienna pre 1550 people complain.

Regardless, I think most people agree that the Ottomans should be extremely strong early, it's just the frustration is there is absolutely zero to stop an excessive snowball. If the Ottomans had negative events late game or some kind of malus I think people wouldn't complain as much.

 

[Vin55]

I did play many games, and whilst France and Russia and even (Poland sometimes) did win the Ottmans where in 49 out of 50 games the domiant Power, the austrians even with all Pus did not have that much of a chance, the French did hurt in recent patches because of Spain England or austria England alliances plus the free Pus for the emperor. England should not be able to go with austria or Spain, it makes the world there less dinamic.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

I did play many games, and whilst France and Russia and even (Poland sometimes) did win the Ottmans where in 49 out of 50 games the domiant Power, the austrians even with all Pus did not have that much of a chance, the French did hurt in recent patches because of Spain England or austria England alliances plus the free Pus for the emperor. England should not be able to go with austria or Spain, it makes the world there less dinamic.

Strange because for me it seems Austria holds their own against them in about 40-50%. It seemed dependend on the getting the PUs (especially Burgundy) and keeping the emperorship. If that worked out they usually beat them back. Of course getting all if that is very RNG dependant.

 

[Ferdinand_Bardamu]

Can we also agree that Turkish should not be in the Levantine culture group? It's unfair they get such a huge cultural union and no penalties for owning provinces which really aren't in their culture group?

 

[Nostalgium]

Can we also agree that Turkish should not be in the Levantine culture group? It's unfair they get such a huge cultural union and no penalties for owning provinces which really aren't in their culture group?

It's a weird one to me, because they definitely had cultural similarities to the others in the area which should be simulated, but a cultural union is too powerful to represent it properly. Making them a unique culture like Korean wouldn't work too well, grouping them with the other Turks would lead to weird gameplay (this was the case in the past and made the Ottomans prioritize meddling in Central Asia), so they're stuck in this non-position. Honestly, it's a problem caused by EU4's cultural mechanics not being granular enough to implement a proper solution. A solution could possibly be to carve up the Levantine group into two, which would give them cultural union with, say, Syria and Mashriqi, but not with Egyptian and Hejazi.

 

[lambda x.x]

Right now, converting to Christianity as the Ottomans is a "memelord shenanigans" thing.

Whoa, this is the first thing I see on this thread... What? Catholic + revoke had been the strongest way to play Ottomans for a while.

 

[Blackmoore]

It's a scaling issue, essentially. The AI needed to be smarter about forts, be more efficient in its economy, effective militarily and most of all aggressive. But, to make AI Wurttemberg more powerful, you get a more powerful Spain, France and ... Ottomans. In fact, the Ottomans are the apex of this power scaling.

While you think that the scaling would balance out across the board, it isn't like adding a flat +100 to each and every AI, it's as if national power levels are being multiplied by 2, whereby the largest and most powerful benefit proportionally more from the changes.

While you might say, the Ottomans fall off after 1600 -- and I suppose that's true to a certain degree, but the way pips interact with the combat has changed (no guarantee that it works the way they think it does) and it is not only players that benefit from snowballing, AIs do as well. Ottomans are early game destroyers and your goal as the Ottoman player is to devour so much of the world by 1600 that it doesn't matter.

If your nation of choice lives in the vicinity, you can either disrupt the Ottomans before Mil Tech 4 or expand extremely carefully because anytime your manpower or force limit drops enough, you are going to be wrecked.

 

[Saat98]

It's a weird one to me, because they definitely had cultural similarities to the others in the area which should be simulated, but a cultural union is too powerful to represent it properly. Making them a unique culture like Korean wouldn't work too well, grouping them with the other Turks would lead to weird gameplay (this was the case in the past and made the Ottomans prioritize meddling in Central Asia), so they're stuck in this non-position. Honestly, it's a problem caused by EU4's cultural mechanics not being granular enough to implement a proper solution. A solution could possibly be to carve up the Levantine group into two, which would give them cultural union with, say, Syria and Mashriqi, but not with Egyptian and Hejazi.

Maybe we could give them something like Mughal Diwan? They could get a culture accepted if and only if they own every province with that culture in the old world. We can make it not as overpowered as the actual Diwan by not giving the cultural assimilation bonuses. Then we could put Turkish in its own culture group and get similar results as today, and besides the mixed results, I believe this would be a nerf to Ottos.

 

[jamal bakr]

From 1.30 - 1.32 I never saw France or Russia reach their historical borders. No one complained.

Meanwhile if the Ottomans don't annex Egypt in one war or border Vienna pre 1550 people complain.

Regardless, I think most people agree that the Ottomans should be extremely strong early, it's just the frustration is there is absolutely zero to stop an excessive snowball. If the Ottomans had negative events late game or some kind of malus I think people wouldn't complain as much.

Maybe once any nation hits 1000 dev you get an innate "mingexplosion" type event possibility for losing your capital/massive devastation etc. Might be fun! Maybe even give buddhist a big karma boost for popping nations. Play as a buddhist nepal and go around popping vijay, bahamis, ming, etc.

It's a weird one to me, because they definitely had cultural similarities to the others in the area which should be simulated, but a cultural union is too powerful to represent it properly. Making them a unique culture like Korean wouldn't work too well, grouping them with the other Turks would lead to weird gameplay (this was the case in the past and made the Ottomans prioritize meddling in Central Asia), so they're stuck in this non-position. Honestly, it's a problem caused by EU4's cultural mechanics not being granular enough to implement a proper solution. A solution could possibly be to carve up the Levantine group into two, which would give them cultural union with, say, Syria and Mashriqi, but not with Egyptian and Hejazi.

Lebanese definitely considered Turks to be "foreigners".

 

[grommile]

Whoa, this is the first thing I see on this thread... What? Catholic + revoke had been the strongest way to play Ottomans for a while.

Completely unnecessary, though. You don't get knifed in the face by a disaster if you don't, and as far as I'm aware Sunnimans is perfectly capable of brute force WC.

 

[lambda x.x]

Completely unnecessary, though. You don't get knifed in the face by a disaster if you don't, and as far as I'm aware Sunnimans is perfectly capable of brute force WC.

Hmm... I don't see how something being unnecessary to achieve a goal helps your case that flipping to catholic as Ottomans is a "memelord" strategy. You can do a WC without mil tech, yet I hope you would agree with me that it is not a "memelord" strategy to tech up?

 

[Damedius]

While you might say, the Ottomans fall off after 1600 -- and I suppose that's true to a certain degree, but the way pips interact with the combat has changed (no guarantee that it works the way they think it does) and it is not only players that benefit from snowballing, AIs do as well. Ottomans are early game destroyers and your goal as the Ottoman player is to devour so much of the world by 1600 that it doesn't matter.

It's a combination, they fall off and Western tech stops being trash tier, which it is at the beginning of the game. The Ottomans can win 2 to 1 until tech level 12, when western tech finally stops being awful and is merely just bad. Even then it doesn't achieve parity until tech 15 and you have to wait until Mil tech 19 before western tech finally eclipses Anatolian tech.

 

[Blackmoore]

Sure, I understand that. I was referring to some people who have done some preliminary testing that suggests that pips and unit quality may not be as important anymore than simply the quantity of troops. Which, again massively assists the Ottomans since they have the force limit and manpower battery to support early full-cannon doomstacks -- particularly with a better economy.

 

[Slow Bathroom]

If you think it's too hard to survive near the Ottomans can't you just play on easy mode? That's what the difficulty settings are for.