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Nostalgium

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This turns the Janissaries into (even more of) a trap option that you should never use.
My point is that they shouldn't really be a choice. They should be an integral part of the Ottoman tag/government, like Celestial Empire for Ming or the Szlachta for Poland. Moving them from an optional mechanic to a mandatory one lets Paradox code more around it, and makes it harder for the player to never get Janissary problems by simply never using Janissaries
 
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grommile

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They should be an integral part of the Ottoman tag/government
Out of interest, what happens when a locked reform's potential clause evaluates to false?
 

Vin55

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My point is that they shouldn't really be a choice. They should be an integral part of the Ottoman tag/government, like Celestial Empire for Ming or the Szlachta for Poland. Moving them from an optional mechanic to a mandatory one lets Paradox code more around it, and makes it harder for the player to never get Janissary problems by simply never using Janissaries
I agree, the disaster should come from them, make the harem weaker, cmon the ottomans have 6 6 6 rulers all the time, but It should be able to reform them, and make them better, through missions or through the ingame mechanics, it should cripple the armies, the economies and the fighting morale of the ottomans. The infhighting should start in the age of reformation and if one does not solve it until the age of absolutism it should hit hard, the ai should be coded that 4/5 times it will get the disaster in one form or the other,
I think the game will benefit from this.
On the other side I would also like for the mamelucks to sometimes win, for that to happen, the ai should get better missions to get useful land in anatolia and Iraq, rather than some desert tribes. (It should also invole an alliance with Tunis, as the mamelucks had no interest there, and the ai will focus Tunis, but will be overrun in the Levante.
 
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Vin55

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My point is that they shouldn't really be a choice. They should be an integral part of the Ottoman tag/government, like Celestial Empire for Ming or the Szlachta for Poland. Moving them from an optional mechanic to a mandatory one lets Paradox code more around it, and makes it harder for the player to never get Janissary problems by simply never using Janissaries
I agree, the disaster should come from them, make the harem weaker, cmon the ottomans have 6 6 6 rulers all the time, but It should be able to reform them, and make them better, through missions or through the ingame mechanics, it should cripple the armies, the economies and the fighting morale of the ottomans. The infhighting should start in the age of reformation and if one does not solve it until the age of absolutism it should hit hard, the ai should be coded that 4/5 times it will get the disaster in one form or the other,
I think the game will benefit from this.
On the other side I would also like for the mamelucks to sometimes win, for that to happen, the ai should get better missions to get useful land in anatolia and Iraq, rather than some desert tribes. (It should also invole an alliance with Tunis, as the mamelucks had no interest there, and the ai will focus Tunis, but will be overrun in the Levante.
 

grommile

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mon the ottomans have 6 6 6 rulers all the time,
They have much better chances for it than other states, since you get to roll multiple heirs and pick the one you like the best, but they certainly don't have 6/6/6 all the time.
 
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Vin55

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They have much better chances for it than other states, since you get to roll multiple heirs and pick the one you like the best, but they certainly don't have 6/6/6 all the time.
I know but u get 5 5 5 at least over 90% of the time, which is still a lot better than all other nations.
 
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grommile

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I know but u get 5 5 5 at least over 90% of the time
It certainly doesn't feel like that when I play them. (Mind you, I don't exactly make heavy use of the Disinherit button – but I don't think the AI does, either.)

Perhaps both of us should come back with some accurate statistics :)
 
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agreed, but I have the feeling that lucky nations get better rulers, and u can easily get good rulers through harem, and even a 6 4 3 or so is good enough to support bloobing, get ideas and techs.
 

Nostalgium

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Out of interest, what happens when a locked reform's potential clause evaluates to false?
Then it's lost, I suppose - like how you lose all estates if you flip to Tribal, or lose Nobility if you flip to Parliament, you'd lose Janissaries if you lost the Ottoman Government. I.e. if you lose it to Revolution (which is alright, because, y'know, Revolution) or get flipped to non-Muslim. Either of these would be a fair condition to lose the Janissaries as an estate, IMO.
 
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Either of these would be a fair condition to lose the Janissaries as an estate, IMO.
I tend to the position that if a proposal strengthens the incentives to deliberately convert yourself to Orthodox as the Ottomans in "normal" play (as opposed to memelord shenanigans), the proposal needs reexamination.
 
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It's called "Professionalism" and "Slacken Recruiting Standards."

Did you mark those provinces as targets for those allies? It usually helps.

Generals, Tech, Discipline, Terrain, Drill, amount of pips for different types of units all had effect. Did you take note of that?
Yeah, I'm aware of the "Slacken..." which is why I waited for nearly 3 months of the ongoing war that Ottomans started in, while at ZERO manpower, to see if any reboot would occur, and it didn't, but suddenly the resources are available because I start a second war? If the AI consistently flips that switch, then it would have occurred BEFORE the day I declared on them. AI isn't that cunning, but I'd bet that AI gets to dip into a stats well that the Dev's set up for them so that Ottomans have extra help.
As for "marking provinces" - my allies were suffering from some disease in their AI, because they'd siege to 50-75% and then step off to a separate province. Crimea was totally undefended and 4-5 provinces had no ZOC interference to quick-siege without a Fort delaying things, yet two armies of my allies during that time, were just wandering around Lithuania and Crimea like they were on a nature hike - it was surreal, not normal expected AI gameplay. The worst of all, was when the Modavian 3-star army just headed due North for Muscovy (who isn't even in the war), it was crazy. It's like the Dev's drugged the AI of our Allies, but this is a separate issue from the Ottomans issue itself. The fact that Ottomans can use a 15K army to outclass 30K armies is in itself the biggest problem. Ottomans were not superior in Quality, they had superior numbers/Mass, so the Dev's gave them both Mass and Quality and that combo - is in itself the biggest party foul of game design, if we peel this back to a core issue.
 
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People are never reasonable about the topic of the Ottomans power.

On the one hand, it's true that they don't expand at the rate they did in real life.

At the same time, they never stagnate and decline like they did in real history. As much as I love this game, it does a terrible job of preventing snowballing, The Ottomans once they reach a certain point just relentless go 'look clay, dead' without any negative malus or negative event to balance their early game power.

The only ever collapse because of player involvement, and as it's been mentioned here, it's just incredibly boring to fight the same painful wars against the Ottomans again, and again, and again in every campaign. It's never a 'surprise' who your main end game boss is, you know who it will be from the second you click play.
To couple with your point - the Ottomans had MASS, typically twice as many soldiers in each tactical battle, as their European foes (last battle of the Crusade being the most well-known of these). Quality was only slightly above some (not all) European armies). As Ottomans waned, it was partly due to their Mass being whittled down, plus Janissary forces were no longer the same foreign conquered sons hand-picked, but instead internal Ottomans' citizens had won enough power to force their own sons into the Janissary system (so what Quality there was, and discipline, waned over time). But in EU4, there is NEVER a reduction in Discipline Stats being removed from a kingdom, right? That -- is in itself a huge issue that only an EU5 of the future can change, because EU4 fell into the RPG trap where all stats increases are permanent and never reduce.
 
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Nostalgium

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I tend to the position that if a proposal strengthens the incentives to deliberately convert yourself to Orthodox as the Ottomans in "normal" play (as opposed to memelord shenanigans), the proposal needs reexamination.
I tend to be of the position that converting to Orthodox as Ottomans already disqualifies it from being normal play - much like flipping to Sunni as Austria, or Hindu as Mughals. It's possible - it's even good, as the majority of the region's monuments are locked to Hinduism/Buddhism (or Hinduism with Buddha) - but I rarely see it done except in strategies revolving around it. If someone wants to convert to Orthodoxy as the Ottomans in pursuit of avoiding a late mid-game disaster and lose out on the flavour and bonuses that would be granted to them before said disaster, let them.
 
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I would argue the devs have made the ottomans substantially stronger in this patch to appease a tiny portion of the player set.

Firstly let's look at some of the changes
  • New General Limit based on Force Limit
  • Made AI more aggressive and more likely to take advantage of weakness
  • Improve AI economy management
  • Makes countries with strong economies more likely to build and maintain forts, and weaker economies more likely to delete them
This is particularly strong for the ottomans as
  • They have a FL Modifier so by default have a higher general limit to a country of the same size
    • As AI get generals for no mana, with each having a ~12yr lifespan from being hired, means Ottomans has a much stronger growth of professionalism and as AI will effectively use slacken recruitment, gives the ottomans an almost limitless manpower pool to fuel their expansion.
  • They have a better economy so can better take advantage of their FL bonus and not compromise on forts
  • Are stronger than other countries around them and are now much more aggressive in their early expansion
  • Are more likely to build forts as have one of the strongest economies in the start date, and when they beat their neighbours, the neighbouring countries will delete forts making subsequent wars easier.
As such I would argue these chances in 1.33 disproportionately strengthen the ottomans, and improve their recovery ability after a lost war.

All in all, this makes the Ottomans a much stronger nation and a hell of a lot more blobby.
 
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[The argument]

All in all, this makes the Ottomans a much stronger nation and a hell of a lot more blobby.
I actually see this as a good thing, long term. Sure, it makes them overtuned in the short term, but if they can strengthen all AI nations on a general basis, that lessens the need to handhold certain nations through events and missions. That lowers the barrier for country-specific stalling events and disasters, as the AI is more likely to recover from them if/when they fire. It opens the door for more, shall we say aggressive balancing of nations like the Ottomans.
 
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Lykus Cerebros

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Partly to test Ally AI functionality (that seems "off" a bit after recent update), I also tested Ottomans in Very Easy mode with Lucky Nations "Off" and even with those advantages, while playing Byzantium:
- A 5-nation alliance could not defeat Ottomans, who were fighting a 2nd war before we declared on Ottomans!
Ottomans were fighting Circ and Horde, no reserves, as total fielded army were at 39K, 0 reserves, and only 8% progress for the other war, so - I then declared war on Ottomans who only had two allies, Crimea and a small kingdom with 5K soldiers (and Crimea only had around 6K due to ongoing war with battled against Horde).

Sure enough, the AI still made up the difference and magically grew the reserves 3 different times during the war. I checked the reserves, and suddenly - additional 6K. Few months later - another 6-7K and up to 13K reserves.

I had Hungary with Moldavia as March, Serbia, Georgia (oversized after taking several provinces bordering Black Sea), and our alliance had over 20K more soldiers than Ottomans at the start of our war, and nearly 100K reserves compared to near zero reserves for Ottomans.

- As a sidebar, there were many noticeable AI flaws, as my AI Allies were not sieging properly. The non-fort provinces would be sieged to about 75%, and then the ally army would step off and walk somewhere else at random it seemed. Crimea - only had one fort, but all the other non-ZOC provinces were never sieged by allies in that area, as they would siege for a short time, then step off, over and over - it was maddening (so there's more than an Ottoman's problem going on here). In Ottoman's provincial area, my allies would siege fort provinces, and walk away also. Sometimes halfway through, and then just up and leave, while I am 2 provinces over trying to take on a fort province myself. Again - maddening to watch this, because the PACE MATTERS when you're up against Ottomans, and it's like the AI is helping itself make Ottomans more effective by purposely playing your AI Ally as if they're morons.

And we didn't win a net gain in the end. I could have cut the war off at 35%, the best we achieved, but even then Georgia had lost 4 provinces, and the 1st war against Circ and Horde zoomed from 8% to 70% in just a few months while Ottomans' reserves were getting those boosts (AI doing crazy stuff in the background, apparently).

At the end of the war, Ottomans had over 45K troops and nearly 15K reserves (how does that happen?).
Along the way, we had armies double in size to Ottomans, such as 28-30K against 15-16K Ottomans armies, and the 15K Ottomans armies would lose 3K, and our army would lose 7-10K, with 50% wins for those battles, but then successive battles would result in FULL WIPE even though we were on par numbers wise with Ottomans going into the battle (which doesn't seem right - a 10k vs 10k battle that wipes one side out completely, as there would only be attrition and not a complete wipe in the real world.

One of the design problems in this game - Ottomans were not that high of quality of troops. There's the Janissaries who were "professional soldiers" but battle hardened soldiers who had many battles under their belt, were just as good 1-for-1. The problem Europeans had - they were overconfident with their premium troops and numbers, whereas Ottomans showed up to fights with 2x's the manpower. Final crusade was that way - many nations contributed troops, the army was over 50K, and the Europeans were cocky with that number of troops, but then they ran into a 100K Ottomans army, and it was an easy win for Ottomans. Paradox seems to think that Ottomans were always the higher quality troop, more morale and higher discipline (Ottomans at each phase of a play through remain at/above most all other nations for their morale and discipline numbers), but that itself is not a historic reality. It was their MASS that gave them advantages, not their quality of troops. In either case, the real world Ottomans did not have cloning devices nor teleporters, to suddenly gain 6k soldiers in reserves (however THAT happens...).

Over all, this Ottomans debacle won't be fixed until EU5, if there is an EU5.
I just won against Ottos as Byzantium in Ironman with Albania, Knights, Walachia and Trebizond (didn't join). Epirus and Athens as vassals. AIs stayed close most times. Didn't notice and difference. Maybe it's bigger armies don't follow as well as smaller?
 
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AvengedK1ng

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I would argue the devs have made the ottomans substantially stronger in this patch to appease a tiny portion of the player set.

Firstly let's look at some of the changes
  • New General Limit based on Force Limit
  • Made AI more aggressive and more likely to take advantage of weakness
  • Improve AI economy management
  • Makes countries with strong economies more likely to build and maintain forts, and weaker economies more likely to delete them
This is particularly strong for the ottomans as
  • They have a FL Modifier so by default have a higher general limit to a country of the same size
    • As AI get generals for no mana, with each having a ~12yr lifespan from being hired, means Ottomans has a much stronger growth of professionalism and as AI will effectively use slacken recruitment, gives the ottomans an almost limitless manpower pool to fuel their expansion.
  • They have a better economy so can better take advantage of their FL bonus and not compromise on forts
  • Are stronger than other countries around them and are now much more aggressive in their early expansion
  • Are more likely to build forts as have one of the strongest economies in the start date, and when they beat their neighbours, the neighbouring countries will delete forts making subsequent wars easier.
As such I would argue these chances in 1.33 disproportionately strengthen the ottomans, and improve their recovery ability after a lost war.

All in all, this makes the Ottomans a much stronger nation and a hell of a lot more blobby.
Improving ai economy improves everyone's economy not just ottos
 
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AvengedK1ng

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People are never reasonable about the topic of the Ottomans power.

On the one hand, it's true that they don't expand at the rate they did in real life.

At the same time, they never stagnate and decline like they did in real history. As much as I love this game, it does a terrible job of preventing snowballing, The Ottomans once they reach a certain point just relentless go 'look clay, dead' without any negative malus or negative event to balance their early game power.

The only ever collapse because of player involvement, and as it's been mentioned here, it's just incredibly boring to fight the same painful wars against the Ottomans again, and again, and again in every campaign. It's never a 'surprise' who your main end game boss is, you know who it will be from the second you click play.
They can never stagnate or collapse as eu4 doesn't do make empires collapse
 

Vin55

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I just won against Ottos as Byzantium in Ironman with Albania, Knights, Walachia and Trebizond (didn't join). Epirus and Athens as vassals. AIs stayed close most times. Didn't notice and difference. Maybe it's bigger armies don't follow as well as smaller?
Well u win because of one thing, the Ottomans have not jet taken our capital, bringing them to empire for free and giving them a huge income boost through trade, plus in less than 20 years, if u have such a death alliance of minors u can win, after that, it will be hard. The best way to kill them, is Budget Monks push in the first 5 Years where u can get all cores back an war raps asap, with just the knights and albania.