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Vin55

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In the beta patch the ottomans have indeed become too strong, but it is somewhat historic, there was no contender for some 200 Years, but then it should crumble, it should also be made to just follow the historic route instead of going to the baltic or to India, or russia.
 
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st360

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The problem with the Ottomans is that EU4 does a very bad job of capturing the challenges of expansion.

"Drastically" nerf the Ottomans, and you'll be complaining about whoever blobs into their corpse.
Nobody has ever complained about Muscovy blobbing a entire continents worth of land, or one of the powers uniting India.
 
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Nostalgium

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Nobody has ever complained about Muscovy blobbing a entire continents worth of land, or one of the powers uniting India.
Because that virtually never happens. If I ever saw an AI Hindustan, I'd note the date in the calendar and celebrate it every year for the rarity of it. Muscovy as well tends to collapse spectacularly in 1650+ - a strong lategame Russia is about as rare as Al-Andalusia in my experience. That is to say, I've seen it happen, but not often.
 
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st360

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India gets stuck in 4 blobs, 2 major 2 minor
Muscovy is going to colonise uncolonised siberia unless we put random opm native tribes in
And nobody has ever complained about it, which should tell you something about the people complaining about the Ottomans every patch. Every other nation in the game gets screenshots about how its cool how big they grew. Its because the Ottomans are broken, and are kept broken every patch, on the basis of flimsy excuses ala "well they conquered the Mamluks" and "game gets boring after 50 years so I need a endboss for 10 more years of fun before I quit".
 
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Nostalgium

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And nobody has ever complained about it, which should tell you something about the people complaining about the Ottomans every patch. Every other nation in the game gets screenshots about how its cool how big they grew. Its because the Ottomans are broken, and are kept broken every patch, on the basis of flimsy excuses ala "well they conquered the Mamluks" and "game gets boring after 50 years so I need a endboss for 10 more years of fun before I quit".
I see complaints about pathetic Russia all the time, and I've put down quite a few complaints about the Indian Hugbox myself. Mind you, I actually agree that current Ottomans are no fun, but it's not because they're unstoppable; it's because they're a bloody slog to fight.
 
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AvengedK1ng

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And nobody has ever complained about it, which should tell you something about the people complaining about the Ottomans every patch. Every other nation in the game gets screenshots about how its cool how big they grew. Its because the Ottomans are broken, and are kept broken every patch, on the basis of flimsy excuses ala "well they conquered the Mamluks" and "game gets boring after 50 years so I need a endboss for 10 more years of fun before I quit".
What? complaints on india are common, go back a few months in the threads
 

Nuclear Elvis

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Nope. Once you win a single war it's all downhill from there. Usually the neighbouring nations will tear the Ottomans to shreds.
Not true, if the first "win" is too costly. You can eek out a 25-30% "win" and only get one province, whereas 1-2 of your allies were separately defeated in the war and gave up 2-3 provinces each, or potentially even were fully annexed. So you can "win" and have a negative province gain ratio - in Very Easy mode, for that matter (play tested this in several locations/kingdoms).
 
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Nuclear Elvis

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Partly to test Ally AI functionality (that seems "off" a bit after recent update), I also tested Ottomans in Very Easy mode with Lucky Nations "Off" and even with those advantages, while playing Byzantium:
- A 5-nation alliance could not defeat Ottomans, who were fighting a 2nd war before we declared on Ottomans!
Ottomans were fighting Circ and Horde, no reserves, as total fielded army were at 39K, 0 reserves, and only 8% progress for the other war, so - I then declared war on Ottomans who only had two allies, Crimea and a small kingdom with 5K soldiers (and Crimea only had around 6K due to ongoing war with battled against Horde).

Sure enough, the AI still made up the difference and magically grew the reserves 3 different times during the war. I checked the reserves, and suddenly - additional 6K. Few months later - another 6-7K and up to 13K reserves.

I had Hungary with Moldavia as March, Serbia, Georgia (oversized after taking several provinces bordering Black Sea), and our alliance had over 20K more soldiers than Ottomans at the start of our war, and nearly 100K reserves compared to near zero reserves for Ottomans.

- As a sidebar, there were many noticeable AI flaws, as my AI Allies were not sieging properly. The non-fort provinces would be sieged to about 75%, and then the ally army would step off and walk somewhere else at random it seemed. Crimea - only had one fort, but all the other non-ZOC provinces were never sieged by allies in that area, as they would siege for a short time, then step off, over and over - it was maddening (so there's more than an Ottoman's problem going on here). In Ottoman's provincial area, my allies would siege fort provinces, and walk away also. Sometimes halfway through, and then just up and leave, while I am 2 provinces over trying to take on a fort province myself. Again - maddening to watch this, because the PACE MATTERS when you're up against Ottomans, and it's like the AI is helping itself make Ottomans more effective by purposely playing your AI Ally as if they're morons.

And we didn't win a net gain in the end. I could have cut the war off at 35%, the best we achieved, but even then Georgia had lost 4 provinces, and the 1st war against Circ and Horde zoomed from 8% to 70% in just a few months while Ottomans' reserves were getting those boosts (AI doing crazy stuff in the background, apparently).

At the end of the war, Ottomans had over 45K troops and nearly 15K reserves (how does that happen?).
Along the way, we had armies double in size to Ottomans, such as 28-30K against 15-16K Ottomans armies, and the 15K Ottomans armies would lose 3K, and our army would lose 7-10K, with 50% wins for those battles, but then successive battles would result in FULL WIPE even though we were on par numbers wise with Ottomans going into the battle (which doesn't seem right - a 10k vs 10k battle that wipes one side out completely, as there would only be attrition and not a complete wipe in the real world.

One of the design problems in this game - Ottomans were not that high of quality of troops. There's the Janissaries who were "professional soldiers" but battle hardened soldiers who had many battles under their belt, were just as good 1-for-1. The problem Europeans had - they were overconfident with their premium troops and numbers, whereas Ottomans showed up to fights with 2x's the manpower. Final crusade was that way - many nations contributed troops, the army was over 50K, and the Europeans were cocky with that number of troops, but then they ran into a 100K Ottomans army, and it was an easy win for Ottomans. Paradox seems to think that Ottomans were always the higher quality troop, more morale and higher discipline (Ottomans at each phase of a play through remain at/above most all other nations for their morale and discipline numbers), but that itself is not a historic reality. It was their MASS that gave them advantages, not their quality of troops. In either case, the real world Ottomans did not have cloning devices nor teleporters, to suddenly gain 6k soldiers in reserves (however THAT happens...).

Over all, this Ottomans debacle won't be fixed until EU5, if there is an EU5.
 
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Opanashc

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Sure enough, the AI still made up the difference and magically grew the reserves 3 different times during the war. I checked the reserves, and suddenly - additional 6K. Few months later - another 6-7K and up to 13K reserves.
It's called "Professionalism" and "Slacken Recruiting Standards."
- As a sidebar, there were many noticeable AI flaws, as my AI Allies were not sieging properly. The non-fort provinces would be sieged to about 75%, and then the ally army would step off and walk somewhere else at random it seemed. Crimea - only had one fort, but all the other non-ZOC provinces were never sieged by allies in that area, as they would siege for a short time, then step off, over and over - it was maddening (so there's more than an Ottoman's problem going on here).
Did you mark those provinces as targets for those allies? It usually helps.
At the end of the war, Ottomans had over 45K troops and nearly 15K reserves (how does that happen?).
Along the way, we had armies double in size to Ottomans, such as 28-30K against 15-16K Ottomans armies, and the 15K Ottomans armies would lose 3K, and our army would lose 7-10K, with 50% wins for those battles, but then successive battles would result in FULL WIPE even though we were on par numbers wise with Ottomans going into the battle (which doesn't seem right - a 10k vs 10k battle that wipes one side out completely, as there would only be attrition and not a complete wipe in the real world.
Generals, Tech, Discipline, Terrain, Drill, amount of pips for different types of units all had effect. Did you take note of that?
 
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Daelh

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And what's the point of having any other Idea groups at all when you're pretty much required to roll Eco/Trade/Quantity. It's merely the illusion of choice and agency.
Lol I never pick Eco/trade/quantity and I have no problems with Ottomans most of the games. IMO they have been nerfed big time since a couple of years ago. You just suck at the game.

And if you're wondering I almost always open with diplo and religious/humanist.
 
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grandadmiralbob

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I'm playing as the Teutonic Order (now Prussia). I'm sure there are honest ways to beat them but I'd like a little more variety - unless PDX wants to rename EU4 to "Beat The Ottomans".
See if they join the religious war. Set yourself as threatened and their rivals will more likely ally you. Wait until you have a tech advantage, especially with infantry.
A pic of the map would help, and also, why do the Ottomans matter? Do they border you?
 
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Ferdinand_Bardamu

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People are never reasonable about the topic of the Ottomans power.

On the one hand, it's true that they don't expand at the rate they did in real life.

At the same time, they never stagnate and decline like they did in real history. As much as I love this game, it does a terrible job of preventing snowballing, The Ottomans once they reach a certain point just relentless go 'look clay, dead' without any negative malus or negative event to balance their early game power.

The only ever collapse because of player involvement, and as it's been mentioned here, it's just incredibly boring to fight the same painful wars against the Ottomans again, and again, and again in every campaign. It's never a 'surprise' who your main end game boss is, you know who it will be from the second you click play.
 
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Nostalgium

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The only ever collapse because of player involvement, and as it's been mentioned here, it's just incredibly boring to fight the same painful wars against the Ottomans again, and again, and again in every campaign. It's never a 'surprise' who your main end game boss is, you know who it will be from the second you click play.
I wonder if it could help to divorce the Janissary Revolt from number of Janissaries, as that is never an important factor anymore. Honestly, Janissaries should probably be a special estate, and the events about empowering them should lead to some locked-in reforms, which would eventually build up to their disaster.
 
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Vin55

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Big nerf would be to dont let them have quanti ideas or offensive for the first three idea groups, or just nerf their ambition, ottoman with 600k is a little insane.
 
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grommile

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I wonder if it could help to divorce the Janissary Revolt from number of Janissaries, as that is never an important factor anymore. Honestly, Janissaries should probably be a special estate, and the events about empowering them should lead to some locked-in reforms, which would eventually build up to their disaster.
This turns the Janissaries into (even more of) a trap option that you should never use.