Ottomania

[AvengedK1ng]

It's not the point.

The point is that in every single game the Ottomans are the end game boss. It's the same slog of 7 wars just to get them down to a size that they don't immediately expand after I beat them.

If youre dutch what the hell are you doing fighting ottos, your spheres of influence don't interact

I can do it, it's not a difficulty issue, but it's an extreme boredom issue.

I'd kill to have a huge Russia, colonial Britain or even say unified India to fight as an end-game boss. It never is though, it's always a huge Ottomans.

Less Spanish Siberia since golden century so tall russia more often, ai aggressiveness changes should make it go for Central asia more
Britain gets indian missions too late so height of spanish empire is true end boss

The game is crying for the Ottomans to have an exhaustive disaster. I'd accept something that makes it harder for them to get Printing Press and Manufactories, I'd accept an actual, proper Janissary coup that's hard to get out of i, I'd accept even just them getting -2 Stab on Sultan death reflecting how brutal and bloody succession often was. Just one of these things would be fair enough.

Or pretender rebels marching depending on which candidate you back

Ming have the Mandate.

Because theyre meant to fall early to mid

Russia have bad development and far from institutions.
France have the French Wars of Religion and HRE right on their doorstep with a Burgundian Inheritance that almost never goes their way.

I remember the patches when theyd annex hre and northern Spain and people moaned

England have two major disasters and start with Scotland guaranteed by France.
Castile have a major disaster and awful starting heir.
Austria can lose the Emperorship at any given moment.
Poland may not take the Union and have a bunch of negative events.

Meanwhile the Ottomans can have an Empire from Persia to the Baltic Seas with zero unrest.

And people think this isn't an issue...

Zero unrest quite the under statement

 

[Ferdinand_Bardamu]

Guys, I've done World Conquests as Great Britain lol, I don't need help beating the Ottomans, I'm just stating again how boring it is that they are always the end-game boss.

I'd also like to touch on the fact that the two things that might be able to contain the Ottomans, a strong Russia and a unified Persia, are rare sights. Whilst Russia is a lot more aggressive on 1.33, by the awful Crimean event as I've mentioned, they can have a border with the Ottomans in the first few decades of the game in which case they stand no chance.

Doesn't change the fact that Russia are chronically in tremendous amounts of debt the whole game too.

And Unified Persia...well...that just never happens.

 

[Susan1972]

If I hit 50 dislikes, do I get a free game from PDX or something?

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Guys, I've done World Conquests as Great Britain lol, I don't need help beating the Ottomans, I'm just stating again how boring it is that they are always the end-game boss.

I'd also like to touch on the fact that the two things that might be able to contain the Ottomans, a strong Russia and a unified Persia, are rare sights. Whilst Russia is a lot more aggressive on 1.33, by the awful Crimean event as I've mentioned, they can have a border with the Ottomans in the first few decades of the game in which case they stand no chance.

Doesn't change the fact that Russia are chronically in tremendous amounts of debt the whole game too.

And Unified Persia...well...that just never happens.

The point remains, if your spheres of interest dont intersect, why do you need to fight ottos? Especially if you reroute indian and central asian trade

 

[Nostalgium]

The point remains, if your spheres of interest dont intersect, why do you need to fight ottos? Especially if you reroute indian and central asian trade

Mechanically, you're right, of course, but I get their grievance from an interest point of view. It's pretty boring to look at "OTTOMANS" stretching from Urals to Somalia in every game. I like to look around the world and see what's up even in places where I have no strategic interest, and that's way more fun when something interesting happens, which is more common any other place than the Middle East.

 

[Triplebassist]

I think there are two separate issues here. Ottos too strong is a meme that has been discussed to death here, but there's also the issue that other potential competitors aren't able to consolidate their powerbases fast enough to actually threaten the Ottomans, so we see the same results in Syrian and the Balkans almost every game, which is a little boring

 

[colonial_administrator]

What's with people's bias? Ottomans are outrageously over powered. It's due to their army tradition particularly. Marking someone saying its too strong with an X implies youre biased or possibly a beginner. However since 1.33 ai randomly delete their forts 10 years + after losing a war which means the human can snowball sometimes with their enemy deleting forts in the process - this includes the ottomans deleting all forts sometimes if you reunite byz.

 

[makaramus]

It's any nation, large or small. The whole point of any campaign becomes "wait till the Ottomans grind you down with unkillable doomstacks".

playing as venice I beat them hard even after they take Istanbul.
In fact I beat them while they got tech advantage because realized Austria had a 3 star general and abused it (was gonna abuse albenia instead but austria helped way more)
be observent and you can beat them. Abuse weak moments. Dominate navy, blockade coasts, fight at favorable terrain, focus on military points to compete with technology aganist him, try to get allies that can help you. Yes venice is not the best example since its not "truly" near ottoman but still very troubled by them and doomed to face them all the time. I did fight them at their peak and defeated them only with Austria (no PUs either... just austria with emperorship. tech 4 austria tech 4 venice vs tech 5 ottomans. I peaced out after ottoman took tech 6 while austria still at 4 and took a single land + bunch of money. I used money next war to destroy it)
even according to game Ottomans are most powerful nation in game... Its intented... They are supposed to be BRUTALLY OP. At start of game they dominated their sphere of influance so much that literally all of their neighbors did unthinkable things to contain them and still mostly failed or barely survived(Polish had to save Austrians from them... wich partitioned them in future lol)
In game they are nothing close to historical version... they are allready weakened too much and you can still see a strong mamluk sometimes with %10 or %5 chance (wich is what it should be)
in fact I am annoyed that AI prussia is a unicorn in games not strong Ottoman

 

[Susan1972]

playing as venice I beat them hard even after they take Istanbul.
In fact I beat them while they got tech advantage because realized Austria had a 3 star general and abused it (was gonna abuse albenia instead but austria helped way more)
be observent and you can beat them. Abuse weak moments. Dominate navy, blockade coasts, fight at favorable terrain, focus on military points to compete with technology aganist him, try to get allies that can help you. Yes venice is not the best example since its not "truly" near ottoman but still very troubled by them and doomed to face them all the time. I did fight them at their peak and defeated them only with Austria (no PUs either... just austria with emperorship. tech 4 austria tech 4 venice vs tech 5 ottomans. I peaced out after ottoman took tech 6 while austria still at 4 and took a single land + bunch of money. I used money next war to destroy it)
even according to game Ottomans are most powerful nation in game... Its intented... They are supposed to be BRUTALLY OP. At start of game they dominated their sphere of influance so much that literally all of their neighbors did unthinkable things to contain them and still mostly failed or barely survived(Polish had to save Austrians from them... wich partitioned them in future lol)
In game they are nothing close to historical version... they are allready weakened too much and you can still see a strong mamluk sometimes with %10 or %5 chance (wich is what it should be)
in fact I am annoyed that AI prussia is a unicorn in games not strong Ottoman

Yeah, but what are the odds of an AI Prussia in any given game?

 

[Feeblezak]

If I hit 50 dislikes, do I get a free game from PDX or something?

Yes, but you have to own March of the Eagles to qualify.

 

[makaramus]

Yeah, but what are the odds of an AI Prussia in any given game?

I NEVER SEEN IT HAPPENED AND IT MAKES ME FURIOUS!

 

[americafuhrer]

I like that they expand a lot but, and it may just be recency bias, they seem to be obliterating everyone near them all of a sudden. If I'm not playing a European nation to try and curtail their expansion they just blow up everywhere.

Did a Ming play after a Qing play (simply to form Qing for the achievement) as I'd never played Ming and as soon as I discovered the Ottomans they already owned Austria, Ryazan, Mamluks and Baghdad. I was behind them in military size at 222K to 202K (which shocked me more than anything else).

Ottomans seem to crush Austria too easily. I don't know if they need to do something with Austria and Poland to mutually rival Ottomans to increase their chances of an alliance, though that will lead to issues on its own, or something just to slow them down. I don't think the Ottomans need to be nerfed to fix the issue, I think there just needs to be a chance for nations around them to survive without the player's involvement.

Increase the odds of a Hungary/Mamluk alliance? Venice/Hungary? Etc. Not sure the answer. It also doesn't need to be an *everytime* nerf. I like the variation the game provides and the lucky nations, and general ideas and whatnot, help steer certain nations to always be supreme but there is still variation to it: Burgundy/England beat France every so often, Aragon/Portugal beat Castile, Timurids blowup/turnintoamonster, etc.

Ottomans are.... always Ottomans. It would be neat, solely for diversity sake, to have situations where the Mamluks, Hungary, QQ, etc, actually topple the green blob.

 

[makaramus]

Ottomans are.... always Ottomans. It would be neat, solely for diversity sake, to have situations where the Mamluks, Hungary, QQ, etc, actually topple the green blob.

That should be super rare, like %10 chance. %80 chance they should expand like historically and %10 chance they should just failr to expend and be there as another simple empire.
I think we need an event for Austria. If Austria is fighting ottomans and losing in defensive war there should be an event asking strongest catholic nation not rivaling austria to join war at their side and they will gain extra morale at that fight too while fighting aganist ottomans.(for polish it can be cav combat ability for flavor instead)
Event trigger requirement is Austria losing with 25 warscore for 1 year. After 1 year event will trigger instantly.(Nations rivaling ottomans will have 1.25x weight considering priority. If a nation reject to join next one will get the offering) this event triggers only once