Ottomania

[Susan1972]

The Ottomans have to be nerfed. What is the point of playing any tag near them if, sooner or later, they just squash you? Any strategy just becomes "blob up and min/max and hope for the best" and what's the point of playing?

I know it's a running gag to longtime players but this has just got to stop.

 

[MatthewP]

The Ottomans have to be nerfed. What is the point of playing any tag near them if, sooner or later, they just squash you?

…said all the tags near the ottomans IRL.

Seriously though, it’s fine. Yes, playing a small nation near the ottomans is hard mode. It’s both historical and IMO good for the game to have hard starts.

 

[Susan1972]

…said all the tags near the ottomans IRL.

Seriously though, it’s fine. Yes, playing a small nation near the ottomans is hard mode. It’s both historical and IMO good for the game to have hard starts.

It's any nation, large or small. The whole point of any campaign becomes "wait till the Ottomans grind you down with unkillable doomstacks".

 

[MatthewP]

It's any nation, large or small. The whole point of any campaign becomes "wait till the Ottomans grind you down with unkillable doomstacks".

It can be challenging. I had a game as Hungary a little while ago where the ottomans attacked, and I was just managing to get the upper hand when Poland stabbed me in the back. Had just lost my alliance with Austria due to the new (at the time) AI PU mechanics.

So, I lost that game. But as a somewhat large nation, it took a whole lot going wrong at once. And it was on very hard. And I had a lot of fun losing

 

[Susan1972]

It can be challenging. I had a game as Hungary a little while ago where the ottomans attacked, and I was just managing to get the upper hand when Poland stabbed me in the back. Had just lost my alliance with Austria due to the new (at the time) AI PU mechanics.

So, I lost that game. But as a somewhat large nation, it took a whole lot going wrong at once. And it was on very hard. And I had a lot of fun losing

To each their own. Wasting time on guaranteed failure does not amuse me one bit. I'm playing the Teutonic Order and it makes all the struggles gone through to get to 1530 pointless when the Ottos are not only waiting to attack me but guaranteeing everyone i need to conquer to expand further. So the game is essentially over. Especially since I made the foolish mistake of not min/maxing with the Eco/Trade/Quantity groups

Sorry, the Ottomans have to be drastically nerfed for this game to be a legitimate challenge rather than a one-sided curbstomp.

 

[Amallric]

Get good. There is no guaranteed failure in this game. Ottomans are harder than other enemies, but every war in singleplayer is winnable just with loans and mercs.

 

[Susan1972]

Get good. There is no guaranteed failure in this game. Ottomans are harder than other enemies, but every war in singleplayer is winnable just with loans and mercs.

If you're cheating and save-scumming anything is possible, I guess. Besides, once you've saddled yourself with a mountain of debt and squandered all your professionalism you're just delaying the inevitable even if you do win somehow.

 

[Amallric]

Nope. Once you win a single war it's all downhill from there. Usually the neighbouring nations will tear the Ottomans to shreds.

 

[Susan1972]

Nope. Once you win a single war it's all downhill from there. Usually the neighbouring nations will tear the Ottomans to shreds.

Umm, nope. Your next opponent will jump you when you have no money or manpower.

 

[Susan1972]

Nope. Once you win a single war it's all downhill from there. Usually the neighbouring nations will tear the Ottomans to shreds.

Or, the truce will be so obscenely long that they'll have fully recovered manpower and any allies they had to give up (and this nonsense WRT truces is it's own separate topic)

 

[MatthewP]

To each their own. Wasting time on guaranteed failure does not amuse me one bit. I'm playing the Teutonic Order and it makes all the struggles gone through to get to 1530 pointless when the Ottos are not only waiting to attack me but guaranteeing everyone i need to conquer to expand further. So the game is essentially over. Especially since I made the foolish mistake of not min/maxing with the Eco/Trade/Quantity groups

Sorry, the Ottomans have to be drastically nerfed for this game to be a legitimate challenge rather than a one-sided curbstomp.

I get the frustration. But it is definitely not guaranteed failure, nor does it require save scumming or any underhanded tactics. You just need to get better at the game. Or decide you’re not interested and pick a different challenge.

BTW, I lost my Hungary game because I made mistakes (in particular relying on Austria, but others too).

edit: truthfully, your teutons game doesn’t sound over. You probably can salvage it with some creativity around allies and avenues of expansion.

 

[Nostalgium]

You're well and truly exaggerating how doomed countries near the Ottomans are. Last session I did in MP was Cyprus > Jerusalem in the worst of diplo conditions where the Mamluks hated me and the Ottomans were strong. It's completely doable as a nation of any size, without cheats or savescumming. It's hard - really hard - but far from impossible. And my fellow player was in Bengal, so it's not like we did multiplayer shennanigans to them either.

 

[Kanem Bornu]

On the contrary. I say buff the Ottomans.

 

[Susan1972]

And what's the point of having any other Idea groups at all when you're pretty much required to roll Eco/Trade/Quantity. It's merely the illusion of choice and agency.

 

[MatthewP]

And what's the point of having any other Idea groups at all when you're pretty much required to roll Eco/Trade/Quantity. It's merely the illusion of choice and agency.

I literally haven’t picked Econ or trade in years. Maybe in MP. Quantity is good but far from required for anything.

 

[Susan1972]

I literally haven’t picked Econ or trade in years. Maybe in MP. Quantity is good but far from required for anything.

You need cash for mercs and manpower for extended wars

 

[please add multithreading]

And what's the point of having any other Idea groups at all when you're pretty much required to roll Eco/Trade/Quantity. It's merely the illusion of choice and agency.

Since when are eco and trade a requirenment? Even Quantity isnt necessary if you for some reason hate your time and wanna spend it microing your units 30 times more to avoid uneccessary attrition.

 

[Susan1972]

Since when are eco and trade a requirenment? Even Quantity isnt necessary if you for some reason hate your time and wanna spend it microing your units 30 times more to avoid uneccessary attrition.

Maybe. After all combat in EU4 is only letting their doomstacks seige you down while you dash in and grab their capital. But numbers do matter.

 

[st360]

The Ottomans need to be ahistoricaly broken because blobbers will whine about "not having a endboss by 1550 when the game stops being fun". So the rest of us have to suffer trough this crap.

Paradox has explicitly admitted a while ago they wont balance the Ottomans because they want a blobber endboss. So I guess if you plan on playing in the wrong half of the planet, you need to take quantity, learn to cheat the AI nations, live in debt and mindlessly blob from year 0.

Incoming obligatory "Ottomans are not impossible to beat, therefore its all fine bro, just find some allies, merc up, and kill small stacks first " comments.

 

[jonjowett]

I'm currently playing as Karaman for the achievement (which requires the Ottomans to not exist), and I agree that they are a tough enemy - but that's the challenge!

I had to ally everyone who might possibly help (Russia, Austria, Mamluks, Ajam, Tunis), build their trust to 100 (so they don't break the alliance due to wanting my land), incidentally get the "Trustworthy" achievement, and keep calling them to war for well over a century. I tried attacking the Ottos while they were in separate wars with Europeans, but had to do an emergency peace when they won all the other wars and multiple doomstacks started heading my way. At the same time, I had to grow somehow, and the only possible direction was east. Worse, while I nibbled on Anatolia, the Ottos were blobbing hard in the Balkans - for a long time, all I was doing was shifting them westwards towards the HRE. It's currently ~1630 and the Ottos are finally down to two provinces (including a very juicy 30-dev Kosovo).

Was this as fast and efficient as a true EU4 expert? No. Was it challenging and fun? Yes. Is the game better for having the Ottos as an endgame boss? Yes.

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EDIT:

Incoming obligatory "Ottomans are not impossible to beat, therefore its all fine " comments.

Oops lol