Ottoman-Russian Silliness

[Dracolithfiend]

Seriously what is this a monty python sketch? This is just flat out silly. I know setting the Ottomans and Russians as historical rivals is a big No-No around here (history be damned) but come on -

The four great powers in the world, the next power isn't even close, are #1 Ottomans, #2 Russia, #3 France (me), and #4 Bahamanis.

The Ottoman Empire is allied to Russia and doesn't notice/care about an Empire that basically controls all of India.

At least Russia recognizes India as a threat.

.... sorry I had to rant.

 

[Dracolithfiend]

Oh and also this is like the fifth game I have played since the last update (I know I know but I like to play till the bitter end) and uhhhh every game Castile is wiped out by Granada..... That said this is the smallest Ottoman Empire I have seen so far

 

[EmagDrolBot]

I mean technically Russia doesn't see Bahmanis as a threat, Bahmanis sees Russia as a threat in that screenshot. But yeah. Russian/Ottoman alliance is, imo, stupid and they should get historical rival once Russia forms.

 

[gia257]

i dont see the problem, you let them expand and stay together, they probably arent rivalling becuse trust

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

AI Russia should see Crimea as a strategic goal, since historically they wanted a black sea port. There should be a mission to claim a warm water port, and maybe even a mission to conquer Constantinople. Right now there is only a mission against the Crimean tatars, but I don't think the Ai ever chooses it.

 

[Mortheim]

AI Russia should see Crimea as a strategic goal, since historically they wanted a black sea port. There should be a mission to claim a warm water port, and maybe even a mission to conquer Constantinople. Right now there is only a mission against the Crimean tatars, but I don't think the Ai ever chooses it.

Atm Russia get claims on Crimea when formed.



I strongly agree that Ottomans and Russia shouln't be allies. Historically, Ottomans backed hordes, which raided slavic lands, so most late Muscovy and Russia rulers were trying to deal with this PITA with different success. Then there is value of Black Sea...

 

[Badesumofu]

I'd also query what you've been doing not just with your time, but more so with your monarch points. A France of that size in 1670 should have about twice the development that you do.

As France you have capacity to outgrow any AI without even taking any land outside the France region.

 

[makaramus]

everyone telling that ai russia should see crimea as strategic goal
if you check screen shot russia allready got most of crimea and access to black sea

 

[Sfan]

Could people avoid posting on the forum to say that "With France that shouldn't be an issue, you should roflstomp everyone even with Ming allied with the Ottomans from day 1". Does that make you feel better to intentionally show to someone that you are a better player? The average level of the forum is far superior to the average level of a player.

What I don't understand here is that Russia and Ottomans don't become rivals due to the lack of other valid targets. I doubt they, as AIs, have enough trust to prevent that. It seems obvious that they should be able to rival each other, and that they lack rivals, so why aren't they forced to do so? It just makes sense from an EU4 perspective that the second strongest country of the world would try to overcome the first, especially with a border, even if they used to be friends, so long as they are relatively close in power.

 

[Xaster]

Another thing to consider is that, not counting alliances, I believe that Russian-ottomans wars before 1700 would probably end up with a quickly destroyed Russia, unless Third Rome (which I don't own) changed something about their army

 

[ForschungsFüchse]

I generally agree Russia, once formed, should get historical rivals modifier, but I always debate this over alliances of convenience phenomena, which is also common in history and could disappear from the game with too many large flat modifiers like historical rival.

Honestly what I would prefer is more modifiers that build over time, which could even turn into flat "historical" modifiers after they reach a certain value. So Russia and the Ottomans could ally, but as (e.g.) the border tension modifier builds over 100 years, it would get stronger or even transform into a historical modifier. This would really give buffer states value: want to keep your ally? guarantee a buffer state. I also think this should apply to allies and friends though: basic game design player's "decisions matter". When you ally and build trust for 200 years then all the sudden your best friend is your enemy, decisions do not matter (equally, rivaling your ally or the likes should cost stability).

On missions: Russia should get more southern missions including Constantinople as mentioned... they always wanted that city. They should get missions to protect their fellow Orthodox peoples in the Balkans. They should eventually get missions into Persia and to the Indian ocean, which was also an old Russian imperial dream.

 

[Orkonkel]

Ehh. Sometimes major powers ally each other. Sure, it might block your path of expansion or they might even try to take you down, but it's all part of the game.

 

[Dominion]

I'd also query what you've been doing not just with your time, but more so with your monarch points. A France of that size in 1670 should have about twice the development that you do.

As France you have capacity to outgrow any AI without even taking any land outside the France region.

I get your point, but it's not his.

I open my France games with a no-cb on Byzantium and remove Ottomans pre-1500. He apparently doesn't.
Had runs where I went on to colonize instead of removing Ottos early. It happens. After a while things get repetitive, you try something new, but that's not the issue.

His complain wasn't in regards to opening scenarios. He complained about lategame scenarios.
Maybe he wanted to roleplay, maybe he got bored of being forced to remove them early on and wanted to try something different.

While I do disagree with OP for several reasons I think it's silly to mock his early game if he never said a word about it.

 

[Badesumofu]

I wasn't in any way trying to mock his early game. In fact I tried doing a semi role play game as France myself where I avoided weakening potential major rivals like the Ottomans and mostly stuck to my own culture group in terms of conquest.

I made a point of disinheriting and rushing to fully upgraded advisors in order to sink all that MP into developing. Since it wasn't going into coring or integrating, that was a lot of developing. It also meant I could take mil groups.

By the late 1600s I was an unstoppable behemoth with about 2.5k dev and a peerless military. The point isn't to brag that I'm a great player (I'm not, there are much better than me on these boards) but simply that there is a solution to this problem whether you blob or not.

 

[gronak]

Didn't France and Austria be made historical rivals to prevent an alliance between them? Don't see why it's so frowned upon.

 

[makaramus]

we need a new system called "ambitions"
this ambitions may change for each country and can change mid game too but usually they keep them whole game

as example ottoman ai will start with "mediterrian sea" ambition that want to conquer coasts and islands of mediterrian. venice will allways start with it.
Holy roman emperor will have HRE ambition. other nations will have same nation without being emperor and try to become emperor and incrase imperial authority even when not emperor.

there will be ambitions such as "unite culture" if its close to be done or "form/reform this nation" ambitions too that makes nation target specific provinces.

Muscovy most likely gonna start with "expand borders" like ambition and then shift into "black sea ambition" where he will desire crimea and any province nearby black sea

any country will have any of this ambitions if they can possibly achive them. they will not reward on complation just makes ai have specific desire . like province intrests but more specific.

other possible ambition and when AI shifts to them (mostly)

Form italy: desired when italian minor is most powerful italian.
Colonial Empire: desires to have colonies all over new world
Strong colony: desires to have 1 very strong colony
High King: desires to vassalize weak neighbors
Roman Ambition: desires to conquer borders of old roman empire (Can happen sometimes smiler to mediterrian)
HRE hatred:Wants to damage Holy Roman Empire and reduce imperial authority. mostly happens when emperor is rival or when want provinces inside hre

 

[Dominion]

I wasn't in any way trying to mock his early game. In fact I tried doing a semi role play game as France myself where I avoided weakening potential major rivals like the Ottomans and mostly stuck to my own culture group in terms of conquest.

I made a point of disinheriting and rushing to fully upgraded advisors in order to sink all that MP into developing. Since it wasn't going into coring or integrating, that was a lot of developing. It also meant I could take mil groups.

By the late 1600s I was an unstoppable behemoth with about 2.5k dev and a peerless military. The point isn't to brag that I'm a great player (I'm not, there are much better than me on these boards) but simply that there is a solution to this problem whether you blob or not.

But isn't that exactly his point?

He wasn't an unstoppable behemoth. He was barely eating England.
Both of these nations are stronger than him.
Granted, it was his mistake because you can counteract the dynamic and prevent them from allying each other as France, but it's weird that they'd even think about grabbing an alliance when either of them suffices to take him out.

That being said, Russia got its claims back.
If someone wants to prevent a stable alliance between them, all they need to do is make sure it doesn't happen.
In a standard setting it would totally be his fault. This doesn't feel standard because his France is weak. This is #1 and #2 ganging up on the rest of the world.

Ironically, that situation is exactly what players have been asking for and PDX gave it to us.

Funny how we're seeing our first complaint about something a very vocal part of the community has been asking for for years.

 

[Dracolithfiend]

What I don't understand here is that Russia and Ottomans don't become rivals due to the lack of other valid targets. I doubt they, as AIs, have enough trust to prevent that. It seems obvious that they should be able to rival each other, and that they lack rivals, so why aren't they forced to do so? It just makes sense from an EU4 perspective that the second strongest country of the world would try to overcome the first, especially with a border, even if they used to be friends, so long as they are relatively close in power.

Didn't France and Austria be made historical rivals to prevent an alliance between them? Don't see why it's so frowned upon.

These two posts basically sum up my points.

Also for all those saying how badly I suck keep in mind I have some house rules. I do not "no CB" wars, accept PU's, or take loans to merc up and defeat vastly superior opponents. I find it funny how people trash me for being a sub-par player but you know what? I enjoy the game and that is all that matters.

 

[Dominion]

Nobody thrashes you for sucking. I'm just pointing out that some commentators are used to a different level of play and argue based on it.

Imagine winning your first trophy in a soccer game and someone coming up to you telling you "still no Ronaldo, eh?".
It's true, you're not Ronaldo. Doesn't mean we should base our arguments on his skill.
Kinda like that.

Play however you like.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Another thing to consider is that, not counting alliances, I believe that Russian-ottomans wars before 1700 would probably end up with a quickly destroyed Russia, unless Third Rome (which I don't own) changed something about their army

Even with the Streltsy units due to Third Rome AI Russia will be quickly destroyed. Normally, AI Russia only survives in my games, if the Ottoman Empire is an ally. Otherwise, Russia is stomped into the non-existance.