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unmerged(55601)

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Constantinople,Kostantiniyye,Istanbul,Stamboul or Tsarigrad it is more or less the same.
BTW Will it be possible to change the name of the city in the game ?
Will Russia have Istanbul as one of there national provs? (to simulate actual historic wishes at that time )
 
Last edited:
Feb 4, 2005
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The best solution is to have an event, that change name from Constantinople to Instanbul after few years.

About New Amsterdam/New York example.. I dont agree.

New Amsterdam/New York City became important and well known around the world after the Brittons captured it and made it world's metropoly. So using New York City for its name is more suitable.

But Constantinople was much more important as Capital of Empire than under Turkish rule. So in my opinion Constantinople is better name than Istanbul.
 

Tunch Khan

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Lebowski said:
The best solution is to have an event, that change name from Constantinople to Instanbul after few years.

About New Amsterdam/New York example.. I dont agree.

New Amsterdam/New York City became important and well known around the world after the Brittons captured it and made it world's metropoly. So using New York City for its name is more suitable.

But Constantinople was much more important as Capital of Empire than under Turkish rule. So in my opinion Constantinople is better name than Istanbul.

Game starts with the fall of the idealized romantic empire of your fantasies. :) So it doesn't make much sense to argue it is any more important. However, it's true that the European world kept using the name Constantinopolis for the Ottoman capital, and so did the Turks in their own language (Kostantiniyye).

Constantinopolis (Greek: Κωνσταντινούπολη, Konstantinoúpoli, or Πόλη, Póli) was the capital of the Roman Empire between 330 and 395, the Byzantine Empire between 395 and 1453, and the Ottoman Empire between 1453 and 1923. Strategically located between the Golden Horn and the Sea of Marmara at the point where Europe meets Asia, Constantinopolis was extremely important as the successor to ancient Rome and the largest and wealthiest city in Europe throughout the Middle Ages; it was known as the Queen of Cities (Vasileousa Polis).

The city had many names throughout history. Depending on the background of people, and their language and ethnicity, it often had several different names at any given time; among the most common were Byzantium, New Rome (Nova Roma), Constantinople and Stamboul were some (see etymology).

İstanbul was the common name for the city in normal speech in Turkish even since before the conquest of 1453, but in official use by the Ottoman authorities, other names such as Kostantiniyye were preferred in certain contexts. Thus, Kostantiniyye was used on coinage up to the late 17th and then again in the 19th century. The Ottoman chancelery and courts used Kostantiniyye as part of intricate formulae in expressing the place of origin of formal documents, such as be-Makam-ı Darü's-Saltanat-ı Kostantiniyyetü'l-Mahrusâtü'l-Mahmiyye.

In 19th century Turkish bookprinting it was also used in the impressum of books, in analogy to the foreign use of Constantinople. At the same time, however, İstanbul too was part of official language, for instance as part of the titles of the highest Ottoman military commander (İstanbul ağası) and the highest civil magistrate (İstanbul efendisi) of the city. İstanbul and several other variant forms of the same name were also widely used in Ottoman literature and poetry.

After the creation of the Turkish Republic in 1923, the various alternative names besides İstanbul became obsolete in Turkish. In an edict of March 28, 1930, the Turkish authorities officially requested foreigners to cease referring to the city with their traditional non-Turkish names (such as Constantinople) and to adopt İstanbul as the sole name also in the foreign languages.

Now the question is, are we going to use the local official name for most kingdoms, or are we using the plain English names?

Constantinople spelling is only used in English and in no other language.

For a fun reference, please note the names used for Istanbul:

Kōnstantinoupolis (Κωνσταντινούπολις) - Greek

Kostantiniyye (قسطنطينيه) - OttomanTurkish

Miklagord - Swedish

Qushta (קושטא) - Hebrew

Tsarigrad - Russian

Caergystennin - Welsh

Constantinopla - Spanish

Konstantinápoly - Hungarian

Qüstantiniyya - Azeri

Bolis (Ստամբուլ) - Armenian

Cařihrad -Czech

Constantinopel - Dutch

Ţarigrad - Romanian

al-Qustantiniyah (القسطنطينية) - Arabic

Costantinopoli - Italian

Mikligarðr - Old Norse

Konstantinopel - German

Kayser-i Zemin - Persian

Carogród - Polish

Stamboul - French

Mikligarður - Icelandic
 

th3freakie

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Tunch Khan

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Raczynski said:
Tunch Khan said:
Carogród - Polish
Not really popular.
GorSer said:
Tunch Khan said:
Tsarigrad - Russian.
not popular at all. it translates as Tsar City (King City) this is not Russian approach to Ottomans/Turkey.
The standard now is transliterated as "Stambul"
At the time we are talking about it was "Constaninopol'" .
Those names may not be what it is popular today, but they sure were popular during the Middle Ages among the Polish or Russian elite circles, people who would know about the existence of that city and be able to read and write about it: a few nobles, priests and monks. That is why and how they have been recorded.

There have always been alternatives to the name for "the City of All Men's Desire" in every circle depending on the context of the occasion. Religious, political, romantic and historical uses of the name have always varied.
 
Feb 4, 2005
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All these dicussions about Constantinople/Istanbul lead to one conclusion:

Eliminating Byz*****m from EU3 might be the biggest mistake by Paradox ;)
 
Last edited:

Beylerbeyi

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Lebowski said:
All these dicussions about Constantinople/Istanbul lead to one conclusion:

Eliminating Byz*****m from EU3 might be the biggest mistake by Paradox ;)

Maybe. I'll miss the Purple Decay too. I love to crush them in EU2 with the OE. Also knowing that they are being crushed 95% of the time someone in some country plays EU2, filled my heart with warm feelings. Crushing Trabizond won't be half as fun.
 
Jan 9, 2005
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They will be a revolter; don't worry :)

What sort of starting position should the Ottomans be in circa '53?
 

Yakman

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i find myself referring to it as constantinople in daily speech (whenever it happens to come up :rolleyes: ). and people are like "wha?"
 

Tunch Khan

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mandead said:
What sort of starting position should the Ottomans be in circa '53?
What do you think of this?

AsiaMinor_1453.JPG
 

unmerged(55601)

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Lebowski said:
All these dicussions about Constantinople/Istanbul lead to one conclusion:

Eliminating Byz*****m from EU3 might be the biggest mistake by Paradox ;)

Not at all.
It is more interesting because all in South-Eastern Europe have only one dream, to be successor of the second Rome. ;)
 

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please do not go in the way to close this thread.
 

unmerged(62611)

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Tunch Khan said:
When the Mongols destroyed and sacked Bagdad in 2003... *sorry in 1258,


You have killed me (of laughter)...

I have always respected your contributions in bringing historical accuracy to civ, and now EU. But now I bow before your humor :)


About Suez Canal: as a geotechnical engineer myself, I know Architect Sinan had the proper geotech knowledge and skills for such a feat. Maybe not a canal builder, but he solved other earth-related problems with almost 20th century ingenuity. Modifications to Hagia Sophia in the proper way to counter the slowly developing foundation failure, properly assessing the consolidation settlement (invented in 20th century) and negating it by preloading of the site of Suleymaniye Mosque, etc. Compared to these, Suez Canal is a piece of cake. Given that he was alive until 1588, the option of designing a Suez canal in 1580, if the Sultan had ordered and put resource and manpower into it, would be very possible.


Here is a good question: How would one model the capitulations?
 
Last edited:

Registered

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Harlow said:
Oh my God. 20 pages and how many were dedicated to talking about the stupid name of the city?

I would like to see Ottoman technology advance a bit faster, seeing as how up to about 1660 they were pretty ahead of the Europeans.
If you let them advance faster they will be ahead by 1660 (and i'm not sure they should still be by that time) and they will be far ahead by 1760, which they should definitely not be. Giving them a head start in government tech and perhaps military tech in 1453 might be a good idea. But that is what playtesting is for.
 

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Leaving aside all foolishness about city naming, let us discuss the suggestion of giving the Ottomans claim over the Caliphate. The title of Caliph was not claimed by the Ottomans until the 19th century, before then they merely spoke of themselves as the dominant (Sunni) Islamic state in the world, and thereby worthy of respect. The Sultan's name was said at Friday prayers in Mecca once they took control of it, as confirmation of this position. More or less, they were Defenders of the Faith. The title of Caliph was only dragged up to give the Ottomans additional presige abroad and to try and discourage powers with Muslim minorities (Russia, Britian in India) from attacking them. The concept of the Ottomans as posessing supremacy over all of foreign countries' muslim minorities was first mentioned in the late 1700s to legitimize foreign powers' claims to supremacy over the Ottomans' religious minorities (Catholics for the French, Protestants for the British, and Orthodox Christians for the Russians). There is no basis for giving the Ottomans any additional an additional title as Caliph or any special powers in the 15th century, nor for the vast majority of EU3's timeframe. Have the AI coded to claim Defender of the Faith, that's more than enough representation of the Ottoman's position within the Muslim world.
btw, the book Osman's Dream is an awesome read for anyone who wants a recently-published book (in English) on Ottoman history. Check it out.
 

Tunch Khan

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Archaalen said:
Leaving aside all foolishness about city naming, let us discuss the suggestion of giving the Ottomans claim over the Caliphate. The title of Caliph was not claimed by the Ottomans until the 19th century, before then they merely spoke of themselves as the dominant (Sunni) Islamic state in the world, and thereby worthy of respect. The Sultan's name was said at Friday prayers in Mecca once they took control of it, as confirmation of this position. More or less, they were Defenders of the Faith. The title of Caliph was only dragged up to give the Ottomans additional presige abroad and to try and discourage powers with Muslim minorities (Russia, Britian in India) from attacking them. The concept of the Ottomans as posessing supremacy over all of foreign countries' muslim minorities was first mentioned in the late 1700s to legitimize foreign powers' claims to supremacy over the Ottomans' religious minorities (Catholics for the French, Protestants for the British, and Orthodox Christians for the Russians). There is no basis for giving the Ottomans any additional an additional title as Caliph or any special powers in the 15th century, nor for the vast majority of EU3's timeframe. Have the AI coded to claim Defender of the Faith, that's more than enough representation of the Ottoman's position within the Muslim world.
btw, the book Osman's Dream is an awesome read for anyone who wants a recently-published book (in English) on Ottoman history. Check it out.
I would also recommend you checking the Ottoman foreign policy in the Indian Ocean at the end of the 16th Century when Ottomans did in fact use the title of Caliph to "religiously vassalize" the Mughal Empire in India, Atceh Sultanate in Indonesia and all the other small Sunni emirates and sheikhdoms at the Horn of Africa. They pursued an active policy on expanding to the area which saw the failed attempts (due to political corruption) to build the Suez Canal and to create an Indian Ocean Fleet to wipe out the Portugese.

True, that the title of Caliph was not actively in use between the 16th and 18th Centuries as effectively, however, Ottoman Sultan's name was called at the Friday prayers not only in Mecca but from the Atlantic Ocean (Morocco) to the Pacific Ocean in all Sunni mosques, after the prophet, but always before their local Sultan or Emir.
 
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