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Tunch Khan

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TURKISH NAVY NAMES:


TUR;Donanma-i Humayun
TUR;Akdeniz Donanmasi
TUR;Karadeniz Donanmasi
TUR;Kostantiniyye Kalyonlari
TUR;Kizildeniz Filosu
TUR;Suriye Filosu
TUR;Hind Donanmasi
TUR;Cebelitarik Kalyonlari
TUR;Tunus Kalyonlari
TUR;Arnavut Kalyonlari
TUR;Egriboz Kalyonlari
TUR;Kefalonya Kalyonlari
TUR;Rodos Kalyonlari
TUR;Kibris Kalyonlari
TUR;Adalar Filosu
TUR;Girit Kalyonlari
TUR;Malta Kalyonlari
TUR;Atlas Donanmasi
TUR;Cezayir Kalyonlari
TUR;Trablus Filosu
TUR;Kostantiniyye Kadirgalari
TUR;Suriye Kadirgalari
TUR;Tunus Kadirgalari
TUR;Arnavut Kadirgalari
TUR;Cezayir Kadirgalari
TUR;Trablus Kadirgalari

As usual I have compiled an initial list to serve as a base for a better list. Better than Red and Blue Squadrons that is. ;)
 

riskbreaker86

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i don't have time right now to read through all this (ironically i'm in istanbul giving my parents a week long guided tour, yesterday including sultan ahmet aya sofya, the underground cistern the islamic art museum and mısır çarşısı) but i can say there is great ideas here, i'd love to see some events surrounding the great architect mimar sinan and believe the caliphate should be represented in some way. Cultures should expand through triggered events to include turkish, armenian, balkan etc.

The flag issue is interesting but i'd prefer a green flag with a white crescent in the early periods, it is traditionally seen as the Ottoman flag during the early periods here from what i understand.


Army names are looking great! i'd like to see some linked to pashas or perhaps regions such as the greek division, excuse my turkish but perhaps something like:

ibrahim pasa'nin ordusu
yunanistan ordusu

and what about navy names?

halic deniz kuvvetleri or boğaz deniz kuvvetleri, just a suggestion!
 

Alexandru H.

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I don't think giving Armenian culture to the Ottoman Empire is a very good idea... think about 1915 :(
 

unmerged(9590)

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for many ortodox people its stil constantinople and Aya Sofija is still a church!
so dont know where it comes from that name constatinople ends 1920!
 

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Zoran said:
for many ortodox people its stil constantinople and Aya Sofija is still a church!
so dont know where it comes from that name constatinople ends 1920!

Because it was oficially changed?
 

Jodien

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First about the map:

The names are mostly written in modern pronunciation which is quite wrong for the 15th century. Western Anatolia was still ruled by Latin and Greek languages, the Turko-Persian language which will later be called as the Ottoman lang. was very new at the time. The province and city names Tunch gave are mostly 19th century names and their spelling is modern Turkish which is invented with latin alphabet in 1928, which are beyond the EU time period.

According to this the major cities and provinces should read as follows:

City, Province:

Constantinople, Bosphorus
Adrianople, Thrace
Nicomedia, Bithynia
Brusa, Brusa
Smyrna, Smyrna
Ankyra, Angora
Sebaste, Sivas
Konya, Konya
Caesarea, Cappadocia
Trebizond, Trebizond
Sinope, Paphlagonia
Atalia, Teke
Tarsus, Adana
Antioch, Antioch


Anatolia is not a province. It is the name for the whole Asia minor.

There are also Kurdistan instead of Diyarbakir and Armenia in Kars at the eastern parts of Anatolia.

Ottoman culture must be Turkish, Greek, Armenian. The others shall be included with historic events and conquests in later periods.

The army and navy names are cool but it is more fitting to use English words for words like Ordu(Army), bölük (regiment) etc. No need to make the game highly multilingual. :)

The flag shall be the single golden crescent on red background since the game is between years 1453 and 1789.

Royal Marriages between Sunni and Orthodox shall be permitted. There may even be some event to change state religion to Orthodox, since it was a debate in Mehmed II's reign.
 

Yasko

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Jodien said:
Anatolia is not a province. It is the name for the whole Asia minor.

I dont agree with your province naming. I did post a map about the province name somewere in the AGC-EEP long time ago.

Both Anatolia and Rum(sivas+ some parts of Erzurum in map i think) were used by the Ottomans as (beylerbeylik)province names. Karaman, Diyar-bekr were also used. I did post a province system from 1500s somewere in the forums. And like in the map names such as Biga, Hudavendigar also Zul-kaddriye etc used by the Ottos as province names a loong time during the game-period.

The problem is that the Beylerbeylik is to big to convert to a province(there would be 5 provinces for Anatolia), while the sancak(ottoman provinces) are too small to convert to a game province since there would be too much. Here is some examples of Ottoman names of the sancaks;

Kayseri=Kayseriyye
Balikesir=Karasi
Afyon=Karahisar-i Sahib
Kastamonu=Kastamoni
Ankara=Enguru
Yozgat=Bozot
Samsun=Canik
Diyarbakir=Amid
Urfa= Ruha

etc.

I´ll prefer to use the Ottoman names since Ottos held these territories during the entire game period.

Ps. Oh BTW the Ottoman Beylerbeyliks and sancaks and their borders changed many times between 1453-1800...
 

Alexandre

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The Impaler said:
I've seen the name "Stamboul" used on maps from the 19th Century, before there was a standardised form of Turkish in Roman characters, but again, I suppose this is still after the EU3 period.

Stamboul is the Asiatic part of the city.

Alexandre
 

Alexandre

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curtis said:
Care to give any other examples of international names for cities from the time period up until 1920? I want to make sure that "international" isn't a moniker for English.

Jasssy for Iasi. Helsingford for Helsinki.

You also get international names for countries: Albanians, Germans, Egyptians, and Chinese have never called their countries by anything related to their names in other languages.

Alexandre
 

Beylerbeyi

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Jodien said:
The names are mostly written in modern pronunciation which is quite wrong for the 15th century. Western Anatolia was still ruled by Latin and Greek languages, the Turko-Persian language which will later be called as the Ottoman lang. was very new at the time.

Not really. Western Anatolia (in fact Anatolia was indeed a part of Asia Minor) was not ruled by Latin and Greek by the time. Turks were everywhere all the way to in Nicomedia already in the 11th century. Turkish was dominant in the Turkish-culture areas, thanks to Seljuk and Turkish Principality rule since 1071.

Your suggestion of Province names sound too archaic. Too Roman for the period. I think Constantinople/Bosphorus, Adrianople/Thrace, Smyrna/Smyrna, Trebizond/Trebizond are fine as concessions, and can be kept in old English versions, but Nicomedia, Brusa, Bithnya, Ankyra, Sebaste, Paphlagonia, Atalia are not. These were important Seljuk/Ottoman centres, and had their Turkified names already. The names you wrote are more proper for a game like Rome Total War. Finally, using Turkish names have more educational value, since these tend to be the same today.

Some provinces can be called Kurdistan and Armenia depending on their sizes on the map, can't tell without seeing the map. EU II's Kurdistan and Armenia were not very accurate.

CULTURE

I went through the list of Ottoman Grand Viziers in wikipedia, to look for their ethnic origins. Since the viziers were trained in the same system other government officials, this will give us an idea of the cultures represented in the Ottoman central government.

For the game period approximately (there are many with unknown backgrounds, and other biases)

1/3 are Turk
1/4 are Albanian
1/6 are Slavic
1/14 are Greek
1/20 are Georgian
1/10 are remaining others

For the first half of the game period, Turks are very few. For the second half, most are Turks (since Devshirme system wasn't used any more and the Empire became less centralised). I missed the Albanians before, but they have to be there.

There is only one known Armenian. There are no known Kurds or Arabs. While these people had some influence in the Ottoman Empire, it came later. In the game period, their regions were periphery for the Empire. Especially after 1600, Ottomans became less centralised, which meant that local feudal lords and governments had more power. Kurds had such autonomy. This may be interpreted to give them cultures of the areas they ruled.

Final verdict; I recommed Turkish, Greek, Slavic, Albanian cultures for the Ottomans in 1453. Armenian, Kurdish, Arab, Tatar, Georgian cultures are optional, based on game-balance issues.

ARMY AND NAVY NAMES

Turkish names are better. Brains of English-speakers won't ooze out of their ears if they see Ordu instead of Army. It won't harm anyone to learn some Turkish, including enemies of Turks, but it definitely adds flavour (as long as a 'Tumen' is not called 'Dagitim').

I'd like to name my own armies individually. I keep having Army of Austria in Iran border, or similar chaos.
 

Beylerbeyi

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Alexandre said:
Stamboul is the Asiatic part of the city.
Alexandre

No it isn't. It is French rendering of Istanbul, which is a Turkish rendering of Constantinople (theories abound as to the origin of the word, but this is the most likely explanation). Old Istanbulites use 'Istanbul' to refer exclusively to the part within the walls, as opposed to other European parts such as Galata, or Asian parts such as Uskudar or Kadikoy.
 

Mad King James

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It comes from ancient greek "eìs tēn Polin" which became slurred into Stamboul and just means "to the City", and was used as a moniker for centuries. What the Turks did was on par with renaming Chicago to "Dauindicitee". IE they didn't understand what it meant, considered it a place-name, and garbled it into Turkish.

It's rather ironic really.

Officially the city has only been named twice, once by the Emperor Constantine (who named it Nova Roma on May 11, 330) and the second time by the Republic of Turkey (who on March 28, 1930 renamed it İstanbul)
 

Beylerbeyi

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Mad King James said:
It comes from ancient greek "eìs tēn Polin" which became slurred into Stamboul and just means "to the City", and was used as a moniker for centuries. What the Turks did was on par with renaming Chicago to "Dauindicitee". IE they didn't understand what it meant, considered it a place-name, and garbled it into Turkish.

As I've written, theories abound... 'Eis ten polin' is more romantic, but

Constantinopolis -> Stanpol -> Istanbul

is more likely.
 

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Mad King James said:
Officially the city has only been named twice, once by the Emperor Constantine (who named it Nova Roma on May 11, 330) and the second time by the Republic of Turkey (who on March 28, 1930 renamed it İstanbul)

Someone before Constantine must have named it Byzantium :)
 

Tunch Khan

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Zoran said:
you can change it but cant change it in the mind of people its a Balkan thing have to trust me on that!
I don't think it matters a single bit what Balkanites have to say, except for Greeks and Turks. Scandinavians called the city Miklagård and Bulgarians used Tsarigrad, so who cares what Serbs called it. I have already addressed both of the names used by Greeks and the Turks, which for the record, the city starts and ends under Turkish control. For those who missed it, Greeks called it Konstantinopouli and Turks used Kostantiniyye. My compromised suggestion was Konstantiniyye with an additional "n". So if Paradox wants to keep the name English/French it's their choice, but it will have nothing to do with the Balkan ghosts. :cool: Please lets move to the other more important issues, such as the implementation of Caliphate and Patriarchate.
 

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Tunch Khan said:
I don't think it matters a single bit what Balkanites have to say, except for Greeks and Turks. Scandinavians called the city Miklagård and Bulgarians used Tsarigrad, so who cares what Serbs called it. I have already addressed both of the names used by Greeks and the Turks, which for the record, the city starts and ends under Turkish control. For those who missed it, Greeks called it Konstantinopouli and Turks used Kostantiniyye. My compromised suggestion was Konstantiniyye with an additional "n". So if Paradox wants to keep the name English/French it's their choice, but it will have nothing to do with the Balkan ghosts. :cool: Please lets move to the other more important issues, such as the implementation of Caliphate and Patriarchate.
Here's a compromise:

Constantinople.

There, everyone's happy.
 

Tunch Khan

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Forgive the double posting but I believe it would be more proper to have all relevant information under one topic, and paradoxians who read this specific thread might be more interested in this part of the gameplay more than others.

ON CALIPHATE:
Caliphate was used as an effective means of political influence as a means of soft power over other Sunni states, allowing Ottomans to gain a superior position in those countries foreign and domestic politics as well as earning their merchants significant privilidges in their markets. Also, the Caliphate allowed the Ottomans to justify their actions against other Sunni nations, as the Caliph was considered to interpret the Sher'ia (Islamic) Law better than other Islamic scholars, hence reduce the BB. In the Ottoman case, as the Sultans were secular leaders as well as Caliphs themselves, the Sheikh-ul Islam, the Kazasker (Kadi-asker: Chief Military Judge, highest Judicial rank, interpreting Islamic Law) and the Mufti of Kostantiniyye (equivalent to Chief Cleric:Archbishop) constituted the highest Islamic authority. So even though the Caliph (successor to the Prophet Muhammed) themselves, the Sultans would seek the approval of Sheikh-ul Islam through a "Fetwa" (Islamic jurisdiction) before any military campaign or other important matters.

ON PATRIARCHATE:
After uniting with Catholics and accepting the superiority of the Pope at the Council of Florence in 1439, the Orthodox Patriarchate became subordinate to Rome. The office of Patriarch for Orthodox Christians was re-established, made independent and handed to Gennadius II Scholarius by the conquering Ottoman ruler, Sultan Mehmed II, who wished to show his dynasty as direct heirs to the Byzantines, adopting the imperial title Kayser-i-Rûm "Caesar of [Constantinople, the second] Rome", one of many subsidiary titles. As per Russia usurping the title of New Rome, that was plainly a political move to enhance their influence over all Orthodox Christians. Yet, this fancy title didn't mean anything to those beyond immediate Russian borders as the leaders of all Orthodox Christian Churches continued to be appointed by the Patriarchate of Constantinople from 1453 to this present day. The Patriarchate allowed the Ottomans to rule over Orthodox nations as if Ottomans were Orthodox themselves. The Patriarch was designated ethnarch of the Greek (Rum) millet, which included all Orthodox Christians under Ottoman rule, regardless of their nationality in the modern sense. This role was carried out by ethnic Greeks with mixed success. Similar to the College of Cardinals for Catholics, the Ecumenical Patriarche of Constantinople is elected by the Sacred Synod which consists of the following electors*:

SACRED SYNOD:

Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, in Ottoman Empire
Patriarch of Alexandria, Patriarch also styled Pope, historically second Patriarchate in rank, in Mamluk Sultanate
Patriarch of Antioch, historically third Patriarchate in rank, in Memluk Sultanate
Patriarch of Jerusalem, historically fourth Patriarchate in rank, in Mamluk Sultanate
Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, kept Russia's claim to succeed to Byzantium as the Third Rome after 1453. Was recognized by Constantinople only in 1589
Metropolitan Archbishop of Ephesus, in Ottoman Empire
Metropolitan Archbishop of Trebizond in the Empire of Trebizond
Metropolitan Archbishop of Corinthia in the Despotate of Morea
Metropolitan Archbishop of Tbilisi in Georgia
Metropolitan Archbishop of Peć and Belgrade in Serbia
Metropolitan Archbishop of Kiev-Halych in Grand Duchy of Lithuania
Metropolitan Archbishop of Constanta (Tomi) in Dobruja, Ottoman Empire
Metropolitan Archbishop of Alba Iulia in Wallachia
Metropolitan Archbishop of Suceava of Moldavia
Metropolitan Archbishop of Turnovo, in Ottoman Empire (Bulgaria)
Metropolitan Archbishop of Cyprus
Metropolitan Archbishop of Cetinje in the Principality of Zeta
Metropolitan Archbishop of Athens in Duchy of Athens
Metropolitan Archbishop of Selefkia in Karaman
Metropolitan Archbishop of Philadelfia in Ottoman Empire
Metropolitan Archbishop of Ohrid in Ottoman Empire (Bulgaria)
Metropolitan Archbishop of Ikonion in Karaman
Metropolitan Archbishop of Stavropolis in Ottoman Empire
Metropolitan Archbishop of Halkidon (Calchedon) in Ottoman Empire
Metropolitan Archbishop of Crete in Venice
Metropolitan Archbishop of Durazzo in Venetian part of Albania
First Bishop of Mount Athos in Ottoman Empire

* This is a list I have compiled myself, so it is possible that I skipped or misnamed one or perhaps two of them. Please let me know if you have better sources.
 

Yakman

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But in reality, how much additional influence did the title of Caliph give the Sultan?

Certainly, it didn't bring them into a serious alliance with the Moroccans or the Mughals.

IMHO, the Sunni Religion in the game, must meet the needs of the Ottomans and the Mughals first and foremost, and I don't see one side or the other claiming the 'Caliphate' having much impact historically (one of my favorite things in EU2 though was playing as the Mughals and conquering the Ottoman Empire--that ROCKS).
 

Mad King James

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Technically speaking, being the Caliph never had the same level of religious authority as being say, the Pope. The Caliphate was often a self-declared thing, and is a lot closer in how it actually worked to being the "defender of the faith" in EU2.

The only thing approaching the Papacy in the Islamic world was the Grand Ayatollah for the Shi'ites.

Sunni Islam is actually the most decentralized faith in the world, so much so that there are 5 or 6 accepted interpretations of the Koran which are all still considered equally valid, and even agreeing on that much was a huge feat of doctrinal organization.
 
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