Osmanli

[unmerged(4303)]

I think the middle east was at its best and most peaceful under the Ottomans. Its a shame they sided with the Germans in WW1. All the ethnic groups seemed to get along under the beneficent rule of the rightly guided Sultans. This continued till 1918, so it could as well be in the post 1819 history thread as well.

 

[unmerged(8913)]

Well, things weren't quite so good under Ottoman rule as you make them out to be. True, they were one of the most advanced nations in the world until the reign of Suleyman, but after his death, their decline began quite rapidly.

In terms of ethnic strife (what I understand to be your primary intention), it had been increasing all throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries (until the last sultan was deposed). Greek nationalism took hold in the early 19th century, as it did for most of the areas of the Balkans still under Ottoman control (especially Bulgaria and Albania). Armenia in the east also fought for its independance towards the end of the empire. In fact, the last few sultans essentially ordered the systematic slaughter of entire Armenian towns. I think you're projecting the relative harmony of earlier times into the later years of the empire.

 

[Dinsdale]

Yes, all was sunshine and bliss under the merciful Ottomans. In fact, Christians enjoyed having their eldest children kidnapped so much that they honoured the Sultans by calling them "rosebud."

The dozens of martyrs honoured by the Orthadox church all worshiped the Sultans, even whilst being tortured, and to sum up the general awe inspiring hippy love the dynasty inspired; the Arabs gladly fought against them with the British.

Of course the Armenians have left few comments, what with the attempted genocide and all that, but I'm sure if you can track some down they will also pine for the days of when the middle east and balkans were peacefully ruled by the beneficent, magnificent, and entirely humane Ottoman Empire.

 

[unmerged(6986)]

Ottoman empire was in great deal of harmony and peace when compared to any country of its time. This lasted until the rise of nationalism.

The last 100 years maybe sad but this empire lived for 700 years in a heavy-trafic region.

 

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by Yunus
Ottoman empire was in great deal of harmony and peace when compared to any country of its time. This lasted until the rise of nationalism.

The last 100 years maybe sad but this empire lived for 700 years in a heavy-trafic region.

Harmonius? I suppose if you ignore the forced religious conversion, slavery, revolts and depopulation of Hungary then yes, very harmonius.

Not too different from the rest of medieval Europe, but certainly nothing better, and depending upon religion, a good deal worse.

 

[unmerged(6986)]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
Harmonius? I suppose if you ignore the forced religious conversion, slavery, revolts and depopulation of Hungary then yes, very harmonius.

Not too different from the rest of medieval Europe, but certainly nothing better, and depending upon religion, a good deal worse.

I suggest you read more about ottomans from contemporary sources because recent studies don't seem to sound like those of last century. Basically, no state can survive that long only by brutality/oppression, there is something more about Ottomans.

I dont say ottomans were a great democracy or such but, when you consider being a jew in spain, a muslim in russia or a protestant in catholic europe, living in ottoman empire was way better in that era.

Still, ottoman history is very little researched so far and there is a good deal of anti propaganda against ottomans simply because they were defeated in the end, and history is always written by victors.

 

[PMLF]

The Ottoman Empire survived their last 150 years mostly because the British and French didn't let Russia and Austria annex all Ottoman territories. If France and Great Britain didn't interfere Turkey would surely become a Russian province and teh Balkans would be splited between Russia and Austria.

 

[Dinsdale]

Originally posted by Yunus
I suggest you read more about ottomans from contemporary sources because recent studies don't seem to sound like those of last century. Basically, no state can survive that long only by brutality/oppression, there is something more about Ottomans.

Contemporary being another word for revisionist of course. Actually, all states survived through a mixture of fear, brutality and poverty.

Even "contemporary" sources point to taxation as a means of religious conversion, and while such difference seems very trivial today, starving or converting is no less brutal than conversion by swordpoint.

Evidence overturning traditional history ranges from sketchy to outright fantasy, but as is popular these days, find a book and pick your version of history.

Funny how the "contemporaries" don't appear to be able to explain away the Arab revolt or the Armenian genocide, but doubtless behaviour like that must have been something completely new to the Ottomans

 

[unmerged(9563)]

yes there are some shiney spots in Ottoman History, but by the time of WWI, as someone stated above, it was all about the balance of power. It survived as a propped-up state, not by its own harmony and power.

 

[Dark Knight]

Closed to pre-empt probable flame-war. Might be reopened later.

 

[El Greco]

I think it is pointless to have fights about brutality in those times. All empires have had their obscur times. And all the empires have birth and a death. Surely, there was some empires who were more oppressive but I think it is pointless to argue this now. It is history
The Ottoman Empire has ruled upon people who weren't Turks, so it is natural that someday they would revolt.
Armenian Genocide has happened and it is recognised. I understand why Turkish government don't recognise it. It is not strange for me. It is rare that a country makes his Mea Culpa.
Tortures have happened in the Ottoman Empire. So? They were not the only ones..
Etc, etc..
Let's face the history as history.

 

[unmerged(301)]

For many years the flow of refugees in the Middle East/Mediterranean/Europe was to the Ottoman Empire, which is good evidence that it was a better place than many of it's neighbors.

Things started changing after the second siege of Vienna (1693?) and it all went downhill from their.

For it's time and place, the Ottoman Empire wasn't half bad in the early years.

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Dinsdale
Contemporary being another word for revisionist of course. Actually, all states survived through a mixture of fear, brutality and poverty.

Even "contemporary" sources point to taxation as a means of religious conversion, and while such difference seems very trivial today, starving or converting is no less brutal than conversion by swordpoint.

I'm sure the moriscos would disagree. Does heavier taxation on Jews equal a machiavellian plot to convert them by the princes of Europe?

Taxation of minorities was a readily accepted practice, and did carry certain benefits. The taxes were lighter than the Byzantine, for instance.

Originally posted by Dinsdale
Evidence overturning traditional history ranges from sketchy to outright fantasy, but as is popular these days, find a book and pick your version of history.

Funny how the "contemporaries" don't appear to be able to explain away the Arab revolt or the Armenian genocide, but doubtless behaviour like that must have been something completely new to the Ottomans

This is an absurd and inflammatory statement. Books written 20, 50 years ago were horribly inaccurate. Most sources from the 16th and 17th centuries imply a fairly prosperous and stable realm. If you want, I'll dig up some sources.

 

[unmerged(2868)]

I am not sure Nationalism is such a good thing, and that is what destroyed the Ottoman Empire.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

I'm not so sure about the last statement, it was the corruption, the lack of industralization and unwillingness to change until it was to late.
My theory is that the Ottoman empire was so large, so powerfull that it could herself the luxus of being lazy, and the mindset of the ottoman people who regarded the islamic culture and way of life as superior prevented them to open themself to western ideas until it was to late.
Also, the rise of Russia had a large impact, without Russia, the Serbia and Bulgaria wouldn't have become indipedent nations, and then...