Orthodox Bishop Sprites/Portraits

[Lord Vamp]

Hair and Vestments: The Inaccurate Portrayal of Orthodox Characters

I love the demo so far, but can't help noticing that the bishop sprites/portraits are glaringly inaccurate for the Orthodox bishops, who actually dressed quite differently from their Western counterparts even in the Middle Ages. In the game, the bishop sprite is most noticeably wearing a black mazzetta (shoulder-cape) over a white cassock, which is close enough for a Roman Catholic bishop. Orthodox/Byzantine bishops wore different vestments-- mozzettas were and are foreign to Orthodox dress. Instead, it was common for Orthodox bishops to wear mantles ("mandyas", or full capes) over their cassocks during a variety of church services, or as pointed out in the second post, omophors during Divine Liturgy. Even more importantly: BEARDS!!!! I'm not sure this point can be emphasized enough (and the predominance of beards applies to all Byzantines, not just the clergy...I was equally shocked to see that most Byzantine characters are presented as beardless!). The issue of beards was so important that it was listed by Cardinal Humbert in the Bull of Excommunication as one of the chief complaints against the Orthodox Church in 1054:

Because like Simoniacs,
they sell the gift of God; like Valesians, they castrate their guests and promote them not only to
the clergy but to the episcopacy; like Arians, they rebaptize those already baptized in the name of
the holy Trinity, and especially Latins; like Donatists, they claim that with the exception of the
Greek Church, the Church of Christ and baptism has perished from the world; like Nicolaitists,
they allow and defend the carnal marriages of the ministers of the sacred altar; like Severians,
they say that the law of Moses is accursed; like Pneumatomachoi or Theomachoi, they cut off the
procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son; like the Manichaeans among others, they state that
leave is ensouled (animatum); like the Nazarenes, they preserve the carnal cleanness of the Jews
to such an extent that they refuse to baptize dying babies before eight days after birth and, in
refusing to communicate with pregnant or menstruating women, they forbid them to be baptized
if they are pagan; and because they grow the hair on their head and beards, they will not receive
in communion those who tonsure their hair and shave their beards following the decreed practice
(institutio) of the Roman Church. For these errors and many others committed by them, Michael
himself, although admonished by the letters of our lord Pope Leo, contemptuously refused to
repent.

Cardinal Humbert also stated:

While wearing beards and long hair you [Eastern Orthodox] reject the bond of brotherhood with the Roman clergy, since they shave and cut their hair.

These are not superficial differences: the usage of both mantles and beards (*as well as omophors) were drawn from long ecclesiastical and theological traditions (read here and here for more information on the history of beards and mantles in the Orthodox Church respectively). I very much hope this will be fixed at some point, if not by Paradox through an "Eastern" DLC pack, then through the expertise of modders, or failing that I'd try to make the changes myself. It doesn't affect gameplay but in recognition of the immense historical and modern importance of Orthodox appearance, it does have a major impact on immersion. In fact, beards themselves should be very common amongst all Byzantine characters. Please please please fix this, or allow modders to do so.

Look at the examples on this page for proper Orthodox choir dress vestments with mantles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choir_dress#Examples

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Some historical images for how Orthodox bishops should look, and take special note of the mantles or omophors and beards in each:

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[unmerged(179107)]

St. Mark of Ephesus

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St. Nektarios of Aigina

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St. John Chrysostom

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St. Athanasius the Great:

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[Lord Vamp]

Yes, the Saints in those icons (excluding St Nektarious) are wearing omophors, which were/are worn by bishops during Divine Liturgy. That would be another acceptable "outfit."

A couple modern Orthodox bishops (ROCOR) wearing an omophor:

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[cccino]

You may have to wait until the BEARDS DLC is out.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

In the name of the prophet's beard!! You are right! We demand, nay, we DECLARE that we must have a beards DLC at once!

 

[Lord Vamp]

Beards DLC? That would fix part of the problem but I was more hoping for something like a Byzantine or Eastern DLC that could address these issues in greater detail.

I also tidied up the OP and added some information about omophors.

 

[Lord Vamp]

Any other feedback before this thread disappears into oblivion? Have any Paradox devs mentioned future cultural DLC packs, or maybe the ability to mod portraits/models?

 

[cccino]

I apologise for making light of the real issue. (However, I was only half joking - I'd totally buy a beards DLC.)

Since they made a DLC for Mongol faces, it's certainly plausible enough that they could make a graphical DLC for the Orthodox cultures. Hopefully this thread gets at least enough attention to go on their "ideas" pile.

 

[unmerged(250188)]

You may have to wait until the BEARDS DLC is out.

I know this is a joke, but I'd rather large DLC packs that did a lot rather than tonnes of little ones to mess around with....

 

[Lord Vamp]

I apologise for making light of the real issue. (However, I was only half joking - I'd totally buy a beards DLC.)

Since they made a DLC for Mongol faces, it's certainly plausible enough that they could make a graphical DLC for the Orthodox cultures. Hopefully this thread gets at least enough attention to go on their "ideas" pile.

Thanks for your support. Due to the differing skin tones among Orthodox nations I'm not sure a "universal" Orthodox DLC could work. But Byzantium was such an important power during the period that an exclusively Byzantine DLC doesn't seem unreasonable in any way.

Looking through the demo files for portraits, there seem to be two variations: Muslim and Western. Okay, they are adding in Mongolians, but what about the rest of Europe? Again, I have high hopes for this being amended at some point, simply because it's impossible to ignore half of the map.

 

[cccino]

I know this is a joke, but I'd rather large DLC packs that did a lot rather than tonnes of little ones to mess around with....

I actually agree, and I've complained about it elsewhere. (On seeing the preorder bonuses I very nearly refused to buy the game because of the future business model it foreshadows.)
But ultimately, if micro-DLC are what people want, and if microtransactions provide the income Paradox need to survive, grumpy old folk like us might have to put up with it. If there really is a BEARDS DLC analogue I've got some bluecoins to "buy" it with. I'll never get my CC out for micro-DLC though.

 

[Lord Vamp]

I actually agree, and I've complained about it elsewhere. (On seeing the preorder bonuses I very nearly refused to buy the game because of the future business model it foreshadows.)
But ultimately, if micro-DLC are what people want, and if microtransactions provide the income Paradox need to survive, grumpy old folk like us might have to put up with it. If there really is a BEARDS DLC analogue I've got some bluecoins to "buy" it with. I'll never get my CC out for micro-DLC though.

Preferably a DLC would not be necessary to fix this in the first place, but I can appreciate the difficulty in creating a whole new portrait/sprite set, especially given time restraints. But as I mentioned in another thread, I'm confident that a Byzantium DLC could potentially address gameplay as well as graphics. Yes, the game's title is Crusader Kings, and yes, it is obviously orientated towards a Western audience. But Byzantine offers players something very unique and appealing, and I don't believe it should be overlooked. And don't forget that without Byzantium, there ARE NO crusades.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Lord Vamp my good sir wha twould you propose beyond superficial, to give the Byzantium and real Byzantium feel(gameplay wise)?

 

[unmerged(8762)]

Agree with all the points here. Paradox always (but probably due to constraints) always seem to skim over the Orthodox bits in their games, which is a shame, as they take up a large part of the game and deserve a little bit of TLC (NOTE TLC - not DLC )

As mentioned, I think they could still use the existing graphics to fix the Orthodox portraits and make them look more authentic. It does help seperate the whole 'feel' of East vs West.

 

[Lord Vamp]

Lord Vamp my good sir wha twould you propose beyond superficial, to give the Byzantium and real Byzantium feel(gameplay wise)?

There's a lot that could be done, anywhere from unique events to unique council positions or honorary titles to a mechanic that allows you to petition the Pope for help against the Turks to the revamping of "counties" into "themes"... basically, the list of possible changes that would enhance gameplay immersion and historical accuracy is nearly endless.

Of course, fixing the graphics should be the priority at this point .

 

[Lord Vamp]

Agree with all the points here. Paradox always (but probably due to constraints) always seem to skim over the Orthodox bits in their games, which is a shame, as they take up a large part of the game and deserve a little bit of TLC (NOTE TLC - not DLC )

Very true hopefully this time it will be different with DLC packs.

As mentioned, I think they could still use the existing graphics to fix the Orthodox portraits and make them look more authentic. It does help seperate the whole 'feel' of East vs West.

There's still the issue of skin tone...

 

[PyroAce2]

A quick glance into the demo files shows that beards are controlled by properties, just like headguear and hairstyles, rather than DNA. So there is no reason they can't be adjusted based on bishop status. The problem is that beards are left entirely random with absolutely no controlling factors whatsoever:

# p4 beard
#4 = {
#}

Somebody with a bit of patience and modding know-how could just set up factors to force the engine to give any orthodox clergy (bishops / job_spiritual types) beards. And the same goes for giving catholic clergy clean shaven faces.

As far as adding more variety in beards, new vestments, and an entirely new skintone.. we're probably in the DLC realm for the time being.

 

[Lord Vamp]

A quick glance into the demo files shows that beards are controlled by properties, just like headguear and hairstyles, rather than DNA. So there is no reason they can't be adjusted based on bishop status. The problem is that beards are left entirely random with absolutely no controlling factors whatsoever:

Somebody with a bit of patience and modding know-how could just set up factors to force the engine to give any orthodox clergy (bishops / job_spiritual types) beards. And the same goes for giving catholic clergy clean shaven faces.

Interesting. But would it be possible to distinguish based on religion, between Catholic and Orthodox or even Western and Eastern? From what I saw in the demo files, all portrait traits fall into either the "western" or "muslim" categories.

As far as adding more variety in beards, new vestments, and an entirely new skintone.. we're probably in the DLC realm for the time being.

Or even a patch but I agree, unique graphics would go well with a DLC pack.