[!] Orsimer Feature Discussion & Suggestions
- Thread starter Korbah
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Now I don't know how hard it is to code this, but here is my ideas:
Orcs could use some of the Horse Lords mechanics, like having the Code of Malacath government use the horde ability to create retinues using prestige and/or gold.
These retinues would be comprised of heavy and light infantry, also some archers. This gold and prestige would ofc come from raiding.
If possible combining this with Orcish settlements being tribal.
Reflecting the re-building of Orsinium by having decision where a tribal orc with x amount of piety, gold and prestige can rebuild Orsinium. The orcish ruler in question is then given k_orsinium and a ton of prestige. In order to make this more of a challenge you could require the orc in question to rule from a feudal holding. This would also lend itself to forcing an orc player to raid, since they would need gold to upgrade their tribal holding to Feudal.
Orsimer event Ideas:
- An event where a mysterious orc arrives at the targets stronghold asking food and shelter for a few days, prestige and piety for letting him in or loose prestige and piety for turning him away.
- An event where the mysterious orc gives military advice for the ruler, military tech or prestige for turning his advice down.
- An event where the mysterious orc leaves.
- An event where soon after one of the chiefs daughters turns out to be pregnant.
- An event where the daughter in question gives birth to a Orsimer child with the strong, quick and attractive traits.
- An event where the wise woman proclaims the Orsimer child in question to be a son of Malacath.
- An event where the ruler can choose to kill the son of Malacath and loose a ton of piety and prestige. Or not and accept this child as a gift from Malacath and get +20 opinion and adopt this wonder orc into your dynasty as your grandson.
- An event where the Orsimer has a dream where Malacath either kills the target or blesses him, depending on if they kill his child or not.
- An event where the holder of the k_orsinium title can choose to either consider the daedric prince Malacath to be the patron god of the Orsimer or the aedric god Trinimac. Choosing Malacath would get the target +2 martial and +10 opinion from other Orsimer, but choosing Trinimac would get them -5 opinion from Orsimer and +25 opinion from Eight Divines/Auri-El rulers. This would a good event to have in there since it would reflect the king of Orsinium having to choose to either appease traditional orcish culture or appease foreign rulers by making his kingdom look more "civilized".
- An event where a neighboring non-Cult of Malacath ruler sends an envoy complaining about orcish raiders operating within the targets borders. Target can then choose to either send the envoy packing for prestige or promise to crack down on these criminals for +10 opinion with neighboring ruler.
Orcs could use some of the Horse Lords mechanics, like having the Code of Malacath government use the horde ability to create retinues using prestige and/or gold.
These retinues would be comprised of heavy and light infantry, also some archers. This gold and prestige would ofc come from raiding.
If possible combining this with Orcish settlements being tribal.
Reflecting the re-building of Orsinium by having decision where a tribal orc with x amount of piety, gold and prestige can rebuild Orsinium. The orcish ruler in question is then given k_orsinium and a ton of prestige. In order to make this more of a challenge you could require the orc in question to rule from a feudal holding. This would also lend itself to forcing an orc player to raid, since they would need gold to upgrade their tribal holding to Feudal.
Orsimer event Ideas:
- An event where a mysterious orc arrives at the targets stronghold asking food and shelter for a few days, prestige and piety for letting him in or loose prestige and piety for turning him away.
- An event where the mysterious orc gives military advice for the ruler, military tech or prestige for turning his advice down.
- An event where the mysterious orc leaves.
- An event where soon after one of the chiefs daughters turns out to be pregnant.
- An event where the daughter in question gives birth to a Orsimer child with the strong, quick and attractive traits.
- An event where the wise woman proclaims the Orsimer child in question to be a son of Malacath.
- An event where the ruler can choose to kill the son of Malacath and loose a ton of piety and prestige. Or not and accept this child as a gift from Malacath and get +20 opinion and adopt this wonder orc into your dynasty as your grandson.
- An event where the Orsimer has a dream where Malacath either kills the target or blesses him, depending on if they kill his child or not.
- An event where the holder of the k_orsinium title can choose to either consider the daedric prince Malacath to be the patron god of the Orsimer or the aedric god Trinimac. Choosing Malacath would get the target +2 martial and +10 opinion from other Orsimer, but choosing Trinimac would get them -5 opinion from Orsimer and +25 opinion from Eight Divines/Auri-El rulers. This would a good event to have in there since it would reflect the king of Orsinium having to choose to either appease traditional orcish culture or appease foreign rulers by making his kingdom look more "civilized".
- An event where a neighboring non-Cult of Malacath ruler sends an envoy complaining about orcish raiders operating within the targets borders. Target can then choose to either send the envoy packing for prestige or promise to crack down on these criminals for +10 opinion with neighboring ruler.
- 8
Another possible way to deal with Orsinium (not sure if this is possible, since I am not a coder, but it seems like it should work):
Orcs all start tribal (effectively; obviously they'd keep Code of Malacath as their government name) and can never convert to feudal or republic; instead, once they have upgraded their holdings enough, the government they convert to is called "Orsinium." So again, it requires significant prestige/gold to get there, and represents one ruler attempting to rebuild Orsinium.
Indeed, the tribal building to upgrade to get there could be called a tower (which converts to a reasonably nice suite of buildings after you convert). The Orsinium government is basically feudal, but represents an attempt to refound Orsinium. Rulers of this government type get a subjugation CB on other Orcs, and probably should get Agnatic Open succession. They also get the ability to convert to Trinimac, and whatever other effects people decide Orsinium should have.
Basically, the idea is to get around the idea of Orsinium as a specific place, with specific de jures, and get back to Orsinium as a lost age that Orcs aspire to return to.
Orcs all start tribal (effectively; obviously they'd keep Code of Malacath as their government name) and can never convert to feudal or republic; instead, once they have upgraded their holdings enough, the government they convert to is called "Orsinium." So again, it requires significant prestige/gold to get there, and represents one ruler attempting to rebuild Orsinium.
Indeed, the tribal building to upgrade to get there could be called a tower (which converts to a reasonably nice suite of buildings after you convert). The Orsinium government is basically feudal, but represents an attempt to refound Orsinium. Rulers of this government type get a subjugation CB on other Orcs, and probably should get Agnatic Open succession. They also get the ability to convert to Trinimac, and whatever other effects people decide Orsinium should have.
Basically, the idea is to get around the idea of Orsinium as a specific place, with specific de jures, and get back to Orsinium as a lost age that Orcs aspire to return to.
- 7
I think Rubidium is very on point with this; Orsinium is something that is vitally important to many Orcs as a concept, but isn't a consistent place on the map. 'Dejure' Orsinium, at least at levels that cannot change (ie duchy and below) doesn't really make a lot of sense for any extended period of times. What is dejure Orsinium would probably be best off being renamed to the cultural names for non orcs. Also, a a slightly related side note, 'Wrothgarian' just seems wrong as a name, is there any chance that could change too?
Specific suggested renames
d_orsinium -> Kambria (or possibly redistribute counties to other duchies)
c_orsinium -> Granden
b_orsinium -> Granden Tor
d_wrothgarian -> Wrothgar (name of region around the mountains)
c_wrothgarian -> Wrothgaria (name of city in the mountains)
b_wrothgarian -> Wrothgaria
k_Orsinium -> the petty Kingdom for the Wrothgarian mountains could be called Wrothgar, like the duchy, though an Orc specific high kingdom should probably be added too
c_orsinium -> Granden
b_orsinium -> Granden Tor
d_wrothgarian -> Wrothgar (name of region around the mountains)
c_wrothgarian -> Wrothgaria (name of city in the mountains)
b_wrothgarian -> Wrothgaria
k_Orsinium -> the petty Kingdom for the Wrothgarian mountains could be called Wrothgar, like the duchy, though an Orc specific high kingdom should probably be added too
An idea I had, would be to have a 'caliphate' of Orsinium, that could be created under certain circumstances - perhaps a certain amount of piety or prestige, in addition to having at least one Orcish province. The advantages would be that Orsinium isn't a permanent place on the map, and is also quite important to Orcs, or at least those who follow Mauloch as they should, giving Orsinium a sort of 'primacy' amongst Orcish states. Additionally, an advantage of having a duke level title is that Orsinium can be quite small at its establishment - many of its incarnations were - and could be a vassal of a medium sized realm. A real, dejure kingdom, could be a medium term goal, once Orsinum is big enough that the orcs can't simply be displaced in a single war, and if kingdom of Orsinium lasts until it has dejure land via drift, then it has probably earned it. And the Orcs can also have their own mpire as a final goal, instead of sharing one with the Bretons.
One interesting possibility I can see is the ability to settle Orcish aventurers on your land, possibly establishing Orsinium if it does not exist already, either as a tributary or a vassal depending on circumstance. And yes I know, this is straight from ESO, but even a broken clock is right twice a day and all that. In the other lore the Orcs occasionally attempt to get help establishing (or legitimising) Orsinium from others, them actually succeeding at it in return for military service (which along with their smithing skills, even the most orc hating folk would find hard to accuse the orcs at being bad at) doesn't really seem all that ridiculous. Similarly the creation of Orsinium as a province via petition and imperial decree would be a good thing to include (I realise this is suggested by others already, but it is repeatedy referenced in the lore).
All of this could be done n conjunction with other peoples suggestions of making orsinium a modifier, or having buildings in wherever they happen to be established, but I don't really have much to add over what people have suggested already.
Last edited:
- 8
I somehow managed to forget to put in the section on drawbacks, and solutions to using a 'caliphate' of Orsinium, so I'll add that here.
Most relate to it being tied to religion.
First, this would make Orsinium a head of religion title. For a hypothetical Trinimac religion, there isn't really any issue with this given that Trinimac is pretty much just an Orc god, but for Malacath there are non-Orc worshippers. Personally, I'd be inclined to suggest that this isn't really an issue - most Malacath worshippers in the game are Orcs, Orsinium is referenced as being home to all sorts of Malacath creatures (at least in some of its incarnations) and Malacath religion is already geared for Orcs anyway. Still, others might find that more of an issue so its worth considering.
Second is that the 'caliphate' would be unavailable to non-Orc religions. Simply put I don't really see this as much of a problem; Orsinium is very much a cultural centre for the Orcs, so a Warlord who doesn't have the support of many Orcs is going to have a much harder time establishing Orsinium than a less powerful warlord who is better liked by the Orcs as a whole. If such a 'caliphate' system was implemented alongside province modifiers and/or special buildings for Orsinium then what could happen is that upon establishing the 'caliphate' you establish Orsinium (or vice versa) and if, upon establishing the kingdom title, you didn't already have those bonuses you would get them. Thus correct religion Orcs have a relatively easy time establishing Orsinium, and wrong religion Orc can still get establish it, but have a harder time doing so, requiring the kingdom title - I think it would be reasonable to assume that while Orcs would be unlikely to raly behind a relatively minor warlord of the wrong religion, when other options are available and creating Orsinium is an uphill struggle, they would be more likely to accept a King of wrong religion who had already proven himself capabe of establishing a homeland for the Orcs.
Third issue, though not exclusive to using religious titles for Orsinium, but which does affect them and still needs addressing, is of the possibility, which AFAIK is never explored in the canon but perfectly possible in CK2 is that Orsinium exists in some capacity, but is not the most powerful Orcish state. I woud simply give all Orcs a CB which takes whatever province is designated as Orsinium, and either takes or destroys any 'caliph' title depending on religion. Indeed, although I forgot to mentioned earlier, the 'Caliphate' should be entirely dependent on having Orsinium in the realm with it being immediately destroyed on its loss, and immediately created or usurped upon capture of the province designated as orsinium.
As a final idea, destruction of orsinium. If no liege of the province designated as Orsinium is Orcish there would be a timer (50 year perhaps?) after which the province loses its status as Orsinium, representing either the Orcs losing interest in reclaiming the sacked land instead of just rebuilding somewhere or, in the case of revocation rather than conuest, it losing its status of importance to Orcs. During this time, Orcs get a CB to retake Orsinium, and if they fail to do so, they can rebuild it somewhere else. Similarly, if there was no province marked s Orsinium, and the Kingdom existed dejure, but had no holder, its land could revert, based on region, to its original provinces.
As a final final idea, such 'caliph' could be called 'Orc-Lord', and if I'd thought of that sooner there wouldn't have been so many quotation marks everyehwere.
Most relate to it being tied to religion.
First, this would make Orsinium a head of religion title. For a hypothetical Trinimac religion, there isn't really any issue with this given that Trinimac is pretty much just an Orc god, but for Malacath there are non-Orc worshippers. Personally, I'd be inclined to suggest that this isn't really an issue - most Malacath worshippers in the game are Orcs, Orsinium is referenced as being home to all sorts of Malacath creatures (at least in some of its incarnations) and Malacath religion is already geared for Orcs anyway. Still, others might find that more of an issue so its worth considering.
Second is that the 'caliphate' would be unavailable to non-Orc religions. Simply put I don't really see this as much of a problem; Orsinium is very much a cultural centre for the Orcs, so a Warlord who doesn't have the support of many Orcs is going to have a much harder time establishing Orsinium than a less powerful warlord who is better liked by the Orcs as a whole. If such a 'caliphate' system was implemented alongside province modifiers and/or special buildings for Orsinium then what could happen is that upon establishing the 'caliphate' you establish Orsinium (or vice versa) and if, upon establishing the kingdom title, you didn't already have those bonuses you would get them. Thus correct religion Orcs have a relatively easy time establishing Orsinium, and wrong religion Orc can still get establish it, but have a harder time doing so, requiring the kingdom title - I think it would be reasonable to assume that while Orcs would be unlikely to raly behind a relatively minor warlord of the wrong religion, when other options are available and creating Orsinium is an uphill struggle, they would be more likely to accept a King of wrong religion who had already proven himself capabe of establishing a homeland for the Orcs.
Third issue, though not exclusive to using religious titles for Orsinium, but which does affect them and still needs addressing, is of the possibility, which AFAIK is never explored in the canon but perfectly possible in CK2 is that Orsinium exists in some capacity, but is not the most powerful Orcish state. I woud simply give all Orcs a CB which takes whatever province is designated as Orsinium, and either takes or destroys any 'caliph' title depending on religion. Indeed, although I forgot to mentioned earlier, the 'Caliphate' should be entirely dependent on having Orsinium in the realm with it being immediately destroyed on its loss, and immediately created or usurped upon capture of the province designated as orsinium.
As a final idea, destruction of orsinium. If no liege of the province designated as Orsinium is Orcish there would be a timer (50 year perhaps?) after which the province loses its status as Orsinium, representing either the Orcs losing interest in reclaiming the sacked land instead of just rebuilding somewhere or, in the case of revocation rather than conuest, it losing its status of importance to Orcs. During this time, Orcs get a CB to retake Orsinium, and if they fail to do so, they can rebuild it somewhere else. Similarly, if there was no province marked s Orsinium, and the Kingdom existed dejure, but had no holder, its land could revert, based on region, to its original provinces.
As a final final idea, such 'caliph' could be called 'Orc-Lord', and if I'd thought of that sooner there wouldn't have been so many quotation marks everyehwere.
- 6
Personally, I'd like to make Orsinium religion-independent, both because it might be founded by outside action and because I can think of at least three major religions followed by Orcs in canon, and one of those religions is the worshp of Talos (and to a lesser extent, the Eight Divines).
What content should be available for Orsimer who take the Eight Divines route, and should there be a special path for that conversion? Personally, I'd give Nedic-religion Orcs the chance to develop their Orsinium into a standard feudal state - vanilla, I know, but the option needs to be there for the Orsimer to adopt Nedic ways (and for an Orc to become Talos, if Dragonborn or descended from same).
What content should be available for Orsimer who take the Eight Divines route, and should there be a special path for that conversion? Personally, I'd give Nedic-religion Orcs the chance to develop their Orsinium into a standard feudal state - vanilla, I know, but the option needs to be there for the Orsimer to adopt Nedic ways (and for an Orc to become Talos, if Dragonborn or descended from same).
- 1
Good ideas all round, keep it rolling guys and girls. As a reward, I've posted two new Event pics for the Orsimer in the Art thread.
- 2
- 1
They shouldn't be allowed to have cavalry. Some folks think horses are for riding. Then again, some of us are Orcs.
- 1
My two cents:
1. Orc strongholds:
I think the best way to represent them would be to add them as a province modifier. This modifier would lower levies and decrese revolt risk (at least in Skyrim, Orcs seem to be pretty content to live their lives in freedom and not be bothered by anyone). This modifier could pop up semi-randomly. Whenever you have a negative province modifier like bandit/undead infestation there should be a chance that an event fires in which a group of Orc mercenaries/adventurers offer you their services. You could either decline the offer, or let them cleanse your provinces. Should the Orcs be succsessfull, you would have to pay them either in gold or in land. The latter would lead to the province modifier. Of course other outcomes for such an event could be possible, like the Orcs joining the bandits (which could lead to an open rebellions) or you refusing to pay them (which could lead to an assassination attempt on you, for example).
Should any actual Orc character hold the title of Orsinium (more on that later) he would have the option to "take over" this independant Orc strongholds. He could either call them home to help rebuilding Orsinium (clearing the province modifier and giving the king of Orsinium some benefits) or send some Orcs to the stronghold to take it over as an outpost (clearing the province modifier, adding a tribal holding instead, governed by a randomly created Orc that is a vassal of Orsinium and giving the capital of Orsinium some negative modifier (to represent the settlers sent to the stronghold)). This could of course lead to follow-up events with the province owner, both positive (established trade relations) or negative (province owner doesn't like Orcs claiming his lands).
2. Orcish mercenary companies:
A simple carbon copy of the vanilla HL mechanic which enables you to send your sons out as mercenaries. Fits TES Orcs pretty well, I'd say.
3. Orsinium:
As other have posted, I think that "Orsinium" should not be an actual de-jure title, but rather a titular title which you be claimed (through decision) by any Orc that fulfills some criteria like having certain traits or some amount of piety/prestige/martial(?). Of course, having a king-level title should also be a prerequisite. I'm not sure if one should need to be feudal instead of tribal, though that could also be used as a prerequisite.
It would also be quite cool if every time a king of Orsinium is proclaimed, other Orc characters would get an event in which they could either decide to follow this new king, therefore becoming his vassal, or to ignore him, which would result in a piety/prestige loss.
Other features could then be linked to this specific title, for example the reformation of the Cult of Malacath into the the church of Trinimac. There should also be a decision which would allow you to "upgrade" your title to an empire-level title (simply taking away and disabling the Orsinium title and replacing it with a empire-level Orisinium title).
4. Random snippets:
Orcs should have the ability to hand out titles like forge-wive and spear-wive
Orcs should have a more aggresive way of turning a province to their culture, which should of course have it's negative consequences
(Landless) Orc courtiers should get a trait that prohibtis them from marrying, so that only chieftains can marry. Maybe there could even be a law/decision about this. You could either allow them to marry and lose prestige or forbid them to marry and face possibility of revolts (because sexually frustrated Orcs rising up in arms against their king needs to be a thing
).
1. Orc strongholds:
I think the best way to represent them would be to add them as a province modifier. This modifier would lower levies and decrese revolt risk (at least in Skyrim, Orcs seem to be pretty content to live their lives in freedom and not be bothered by anyone). This modifier could pop up semi-randomly. Whenever you have a negative province modifier like bandit/undead infestation there should be a chance that an event fires in which a group of Orc mercenaries/adventurers offer you their services. You could either decline the offer, or let them cleanse your provinces. Should the Orcs be succsessfull, you would have to pay them either in gold or in land. The latter would lead to the province modifier. Of course other outcomes for such an event could be possible, like the Orcs joining the bandits (which could lead to an open rebellions) or you refusing to pay them (which could lead to an assassination attempt on you, for example).
Should any actual Orc character hold the title of Orsinium (more on that later) he would have the option to "take over" this independant Orc strongholds. He could either call them home to help rebuilding Orsinium (clearing the province modifier and giving the king of Orsinium some benefits) or send some Orcs to the stronghold to take it over as an outpost (clearing the province modifier, adding a tribal holding instead, governed by a randomly created Orc that is a vassal of Orsinium and giving the capital of Orsinium some negative modifier (to represent the settlers sent to the stronghold)). This could of course lead to follow-up events with the province owner, both positive (established trade relations) or negative (province owner doesn't like Orcs claiming his lands).
2. Orcish mercenary companies:
A simple carbon copy of the vanilla HL mechanic which enables you to send your sons out as mercenaries. Fits TES Orcs pretty well, I'd say.
3. Orsinium:
As other have posted, I think that "Orsinium" should not be an actual de-jure title, but rather a titular title which you be claimed (through decision) by any Orc that fulfills some criteria like having certain traits or some amount of piety/prestige/martial(?). Of course, having a king-level title should also be a prerequisite. I'm not sure if one should need to be feudal instead of tribal, though that could also be used as a prerequisite.
It would also be quite cool if every time a king of Orsinium is proclaimed, other Orc characters would get an event in which they could either decide to follow this new king, therefore becoming his vassal, or to ignore him, which would result in a piety/prestige loss.
Other features could then be linked to this specific title, for example the reformation of the Cult of Malacath into the the church of Trinimac. There should also be a decision which would allow you to "upgrade" your title to an empire-level title (simply taking away and disabling the Orsinium title and replacing it with a empire-level Orisinium title).
4. Random snippets:
Orcs should have the ability to hand out titles like forge-wive and spear-wive
Orcs should have a more aggresive way of turning a province to their culture, which should of course have it's negative consequences
(Landless) Orc courtiers should get a trait that prohibtis them from marrying, so that only chieftains can marry. Maybe there could even be a law/decision about this. You could either allow them to marry and lose prestige or forbid them to marry and face possibility of revolts (because sexually frustrated Orcs rising up in arms against their king needs to be a thing
).- 1
There could be an event where a courtier is caught eating horses
- 1
That sounds like just one orc was eating horses not all the orcs.
- 1
I have two ideas that were inspired from the Orsinium questline.
One of the major conflicts in pretty much every Orsinium we have seen is about religion. Malacath VS Trinimac. I think it would be great to be able to choose as the ruler which direction you want Orsinium to go. If you go with Malacath you should gain favor with the traditional orc strongholds.
Another major decision you should be able to make as the ruler of Orsinium is whether you continue in the traditional orc ways or strive to a more progressive orc nation and become more like a normal tamrielic kingdom which most Orsiniums have leaned towards. Going with the traditional orc ways will again gain you favor with the strongholds but changing will gain you favor with your neighboring kingdoms.
Some other ideas
Bretons should be able to have something like a 'crusade' against Orsinium.
The Code of Malacath and the Blood Price should play a bigger part. If any orc whether it be a courtier or vassal chief breaks the Code of Malacath the king/chief should be able to enact the Blood Price. The breaker of the code can end up being maimed/injured, killed, or be forced to pay with gold for their crimes.
Orcs do not take prisoners! There are no such things as jails in the orc strongholds. Prisoners should be immediately ransomed or executed.
One of the major conflicts in pretty much every Orsinium we have seen is about religion. Malacath VS Trinimac. I think it would be great to be able to choose as the ruler which direction you want Orsinium to go. If you go with Malacath you should gain favor with the traditional orc strongholds.
Another major decision you should be able to make as the ruler of Orsinium is whether you continue in the traditional orc ways or strive to a more progressive orc nation and become more like a normal tamrielic kingdom which most Orsiniums have leaned towards. Going with the traditional orc ways will again gain you favor with the strongholds but changing will gain you favor with your neighboring kingdoms.
Some other ideas
Bretons should be able to have something like a 'crusade' against Orsinium.
The Code of Malacath and the Blood Price should play a bigger part. If any orc whether it be a courtier or vassal chief breaks the Code of Malacath the king/chief should be able to enact the Blood Price. The breaker of the code can end up being maimed/injured, killed, or be forced to pay with gold for their crimes.
Orcs do not take prisoners! There are no such things as jails in the orc strongholds. Prisoners should be immediately ransomed or executed.
- 4