Orissa Sun Never Sets + Jaganath run - mistakes have been made

[Lord Beverage]

I am in the middle of (1589) a go at The Sun Never Sets on the Indian Empire and Servator of Jagannath achievements and have hit a bit of a wall. I made the early mistake of not becoming a tributary of Ming, and to this point they have passed all their reforms and do not have a single non-tributary neighbor. They currently sit with 200k troops, though with only an 80k manpower limit. (I have them beat in manpower, but am not even half their force limit.)

Most of SE Asia has consolidated around 3-4 of the tributaries, meaning trying to go through any of them means having to go through an extra 20-30k troops in the jungle as well.

I've been trying to annex tributary neighbors in hopes of forming a coalition (particularly with Malacca) without Ming as a way to indirectly take them out (actually, I have no idea if force-breaking tributary status is an available war demand as I've never tried that before). I've been keeping Vijay on life support just for that sweet 200+ aggressive expansion, but no coalition has formed yet.

To make matters worse, Global Trade is coming up in 10 years and Beijing has skyrocketed ahead of Bengal in trade value (about 10 ducats difference when I noticed in 1585, 6 ducats now) - I have taken half a dozen loans to spam textile manufactories everywhere I can in the node, but I am not sure it will be enough.

The start was surprisingly good - got all the way to South America and somehow spawned Colonialism in 1506 - Europe is quite weak and I was able to take away all of Portugal's colonies shortly after landing there. I think that was a mistake too in retrospect as it effectively took away 1/3rd of the colonizing power of that continent. I could have just as easily made them surrender South America later.

For idea groups I opened with exploration, then admin, religious, and just started quantity. The crazy high development of India has kept me rather strapped for admin points, so I haven't finished either of the two admin groups yet.

tl;dr - not sure how to beat Ming anytime soon, and could some advice on how to salvage Global Trade with 11 years to go.

 

[Dominion]

Uh, I just did that run. Isn't Canton somewhere in the India region?

I took India and blobbed around a bit for fun until 1750 which was when I went province sniping and finished 10 years later.
3k dev Spain made it unexpectedly tedious, but at that point in the game there isn't a single nation that can beat you anyways so it was just a matter of getting enough WS and occupying a fort down there.

These achievements always work the same way. Just wait for Imperialism and blob around until you get bored.

Personally I'd take Mewar, then Persia, then the Ottoman Empire and after a while just go for the three remaining provinces.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Oirat and Chagatai have subjects of their own, giving them -1000 for tributary, that means they should regularly refuse tribute

Declare on them while they are non tributary to get a border with Ming..then you can decide whether you want to become tributary yourself (when you have a border Ming always accepts) or wait for the Mandate to tick down (from you being non tributary) and go to war when they reach 0

 

[Lord Beverage]

Oops, not mentioned above is that my armies are sitting right on the border with Mewar about to do exactly that. Persia is just starting to ascend, Mewar has completely collapsed internally, and my vassals are hungry.

The critical issue for me at the moment is securing global trade if possible, and then to get the achievements without going through a WC-style slog. I am hoping to be able to finish the achievements in a single war each with Ming and England, but I understand that may not be feasible.

 

[Dominion]

Dunno if I'd call it a WC style slog. I finished with sth around 6k dev after eating the Ottoman Empire.

That's barely more than a quarter of the world and quite easy to hit if you own India+Anatolia as a whole.
I actually think it's easier than pure province sniping, but probably less fun for most people.

Dunno, I just like to hit the AI in the face with a chair sometimes so waiting on Speed5 for Imperialism and blobbing out is something I enjoy.

 

[Lord Beverage]

I tried a WC recently as the Ottomans and set it aside in the late 1500s as I began churning through India and 10x1 slaughtering Ming whenever they got pulled in. Fighting off massive coalitions every time I wanted to expand was just getting too tedious. Perhaps speed-5'ing a few more tech levels and attacking no one for 10-20 years to get aggressive expansion back under control to regrow it only in individual regions would've made that run better. I'll consider returning to that one later.

As for Global Trade here I am considering no-CB'ing Ryukyu to get within piracy range of Beijing - the Philippines was oddly not close enough so I abandoned a colony there and I didn't want to trigger Ming yet by colonizing Taiwan. Then drop 50+ light ships both there and in Hangzhou and see if the node tanks. Ming is huge on land but mediocre at sea - hopefully that will be enough to pull away 7-10+ ducats/mo.

 

[ArzhurG]

As for Global Trade here I am considering no-CB'ing Ryukyu to get within piracy range of Beijing - the Philippines was oddly not close enough so I abandoned a colony there and I didn't want to trigger Ming yet by colonizing Taiwan. Then drop 50+ light ships both there and in Hangzhou and see if the node tanks. Ming is huge on land but mediocre at sea - hopefully that will be enough to pull away 7-10+ ducats/mo.

I'm pretty sure that you can privateer a node if you have fleet basing rights with a nation which is within range of the node (I'm pretty sure that I just did that to get the achievement Even Better than Piet Heyn).

Also if you move your capital out of Asia you will be able to make territories into trading companies (I'm looking at you land in the Malacca node). This will increase goods produced within the node (for others because you have a trade company and possibly for you because you won't loose goods produced from wrong religion) and give you more trade power.

You might be able to make Ceylon richer than Bengal. The trade going out of it into Goa or the Gulf of Aden will very likely be lower than the trade produced in Ceylon. Vijayanagar doesn't matter because they shouldn't be removing any trade from Ceylon and you should have more trade power than them.

As for beating Ming you could try to cozy up to the Ottomans in order to get an alliance with them. If you manage then you should be able to use them as a beating stick against Ming. They like to rival Ming which would make them more willing to join a war against them.

 

[LetaBot]

I recently wrote an achievement guide for orissa.

https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/70lf0e/achievement_guide_foremost_servitor_of_jagannath/

The basic idea is to expand through the hordes to the north in order to get to siberia. From there you can easily reach the new world. While you do that, also colonize towards Africa. Those countries are easier to pick off than fighting in India and with African Trade Companies they will give you more income for less hassle than fighting in India.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

What is the point of spawning global trade yourself? As long as you have high valued trade nodes global trade spreads to you pretty fast. When it spawns in Ming you may get it 2 or 3 years later, if it spawns for you, Ming will get it in the same time. So you neither can't nerf Ming alot by it. Global trade and also manufactories aren't that important to spawn yourself, total opposite to renaissance or printing press.

 

[YuriiH]

African Trade Companies they will give you more income for less hassle than fighting in India.

IMHO Malaccan trade forwarded to Bengal => Ceylon => Goa gives more money and much faster, compared to rushing for African TCs. You will even be able to grab Global Trade which saves monarch points in the midgame.
Of course Africa gives you gold mines, and indeed it can be prioritised for colonising.
But wasting money and admin/diplo for coring/integrating + converting tons of useless horde lands, and then wasting even more money and time for building Alaska+California in similarly useless lands is a bad choice. America can always wait.

If possible, convert your culture to manchu.

The above is from your Reddit.
Since the achievement requires only to start as Orissa, this should be stated as "Form Bharat, and then form Manchu, then form Qing to get all three: permanent claims on India + permanent claims on China + tasty -20% core creation cost." Or, Bharat can be formed last if you aim for "The Sun never sets…" achievement.

What is the point of spawning global trade yourself?

Monarch points, prestige. Besides, it is really easy to spawn it if you start in India, so why not?

 

[Robert de Bruce]

Ok, but that is a nice-to-have not must-have, or?

 

[Dominion]

Nothing about spawning later institutions is a must-have.

Naturally spawning it is too RNG heavy to count on and force-spawning later institutions isn't necessary if your idea setup and general position is correct.

But it's nice nonetheless.

 

[YuriiH]

Ok, but that is a nice-to-have not must-have, or?

Global Trade is the only institution that does NOT randomly spawn. It's just a missed opportunity if you avoid it, especially starting in India.

 

[Lord Beverage]

Wow - thanks for all the advice everyone. I went from frustrated and almost giving up on this campaign to now asking myself what more achievements can be accomplished and is even a WC still possible in 100 years game time. Mass privateering of Beijing and Hangzhou, thanks to fleet basing rights in Ryukyu, got me Global Trade, and spamming manufactories got me Manufactories as well. I have still not changed my capital trade node - I've had all of Kilwa and Aden trade nodes for over a decade now, but have not had a moment of peace with 200 diplo in the bank to move it! I am collecting there any excess that makes it past, or is created downstream of Bengal which is still quite a lot.

The year now is 1691, I'm wrapping up wars with European colonials over northern South America and the Caribbean for the TW provinces there, central African minors for theirs, leaving a few remaining spots in SE Asia and Kongo for that achievement.

Ming, while still looking large, she is utterly broken after a pair of wars costing them over half a million dead each and will be hit again for their TW provinces in Hainan, and Guangzhou for the Sun Never Sets achievement. Supporting independence of Tibet while they had a craven ruler worked out stunningly well. They just shuffled 60 stacks around the Tibetan plateau and went from 300k fielded with full manpower down to 220k with 150 mercs with no manpower. Occasionally I got to stackwipe them when they tried sieging Lhasa with the stacks I had waiting outside it. It was beautiful. Tibet white peaced after about a decade so with the short truce timer I was able to rush into a second war just to exploit that ruler a second time and ensure Ming's economy was absolutely destroyed while her mandate tanked. With level 6 forts spammed everywhere I didn't even bother to try and siege any of their territory. With all of their boundary forts likewise in mountains and jungle it would've been a reversal of advantage.

They now have 0 mandate, and shouldn't be able to ever raise it again.

The current situation:

Indian integration went extremely slowly as I had not yet taken Influence and my reputation kept getting sabotaged by Ming spies. I delayed influence to pick up Offensive before my series of wars with Ming. Trading in Ivory and getting Influence at last has them integrating rapidly now.

I have the Ottomans sliced into four separate territories - they won't be recovering any time soon.

And in the Americas:

To make sure I 100% both Portugal and their ally Castille I'll pass time pacman'ing Central Africa and SE Asia while France, who I just pulled in on favors, full occupies their mainlands. Their colonial possessions are already near full occupied.

>100 absolutism achievement looks possible, but if I am doing the math correctly, under the disaster, with my legitimacy back to 100, my cap would be 71-72 depending on religious unity. (Just got a low claim, but high stats ruler succession.)

I am ticking up at 2 per month on the disaster, but I see it can end in 1700 - is that just the timer, or does that include even an in-progress disaster? That would have the disaster firing in 1699, and I would have 10 years to get my legitimacy high enough to get over 65 absolutism with the -20% malus. Without the +20 bonus my cap is still 90 which still seems quite good.

Also, Is WC still possible if I were to remain in a state of constant coring and integrations? With the exception of the French juggernaut, the New World is about to be wrapped up - none of the other colonials nations have nations of significance as their overlords.

This went from boring slog I thought I was through with to the most fun I've had in a while playing this game.