Organisation in Divisions- Paras should have give an increase...

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LostinSpice

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From the most recent WWW I noticed when Daniel upgraded his parachute division his Org started at 95% and when he added Paras it had no affect (even though their stats say they add 0.9 Org each) but his support companies reduced Org as published. Work in progress...

Did anyone notice the new basic equipment on the German infantry tech screen? I suspect they'll be renumbered 1 to 4 in due course.
 

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From the most recent WWW I noticed when Daniel upgraded his parachute division his Org started at 95% and when he added Paras it had no affect (even though their stats say they add 0.9 Org each) but his support companies reduced Org as published. Work in progress...

Did anyone notice the new basic equipment on the German infantry tech screen? I suspect they'll be renumbered 1 to 4 in due course.

I think the step between Infantry I (2 steel) and Infantry 2 (4 steel) is pretty steep. I assume that adding another level will give some of the smaller nations more options to find the level that their production can support.
 

bkuepers

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I also noticed a full artillery brigade was like -15 org, much higher than just a company. I thought only support companies were going to bring org down.
 

LostinSpice

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I also noticed a full artillery brigade was like -15 org, much higher than just a company. I thought only support companies were going to bring org down.

Missed this one. Seems very steep and no wonder Daniel felt unable to add them to his infantry divisions. I also thought only support companies dropped Org. What happens if you make an artillery division? Should not a signals company add Org as it helps all the units work together?
 

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Should not a signals company add Org as it helps all the units work together?
In WWW6 the Signal Company actually reduced the Org. Now I am a bit confused. :confused:
vlcsnap-2016-02-04-12h50m19s595.jpg
 

LostinSpice

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In WWW6 the Signal Company actually reduced the Org. Now I am a bit confused. :confused:
View attachment 157212

Me too. I feel the devs need to slow down and take time to build a proper division with all it's support companies, combat artillery and antitank etc...so we can see how the planner really works.
Signal companies should increase Org. Field hospitals should have a neutral/ slight effect on Org but increase morale. The rest as is.
 

Vidkjaer

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From the most recent WWW I noticed when Daniel upgraded his parachute division his Org started at 95% and when he added Paras it had no affect (even though their stats say they add 0.9 Org each) but his support companies reduced Org as published. Work in progress...

Did anyone notice the new basic equipment on the German infantry tech screen? I suspect they'll be renumbered 1 to 4 in due course.

Look again. The given paratrooper template Daniel gets when unlocking paratroopers has one brigade with 3 battalions of paratroopers. On the stats it says 95 in organisation and 27 HP (Hitpoints).
When he adds a battallion to the 2nd regiment the organisation is still 95, but HP increases by 9. Defense increases by 19.6, breakthrough with 8.7, soft attack 6.6, hard attack 2.0 and suppression 1.0.

Organisation is not a sum. It is an average. So if you have 1 infantry with 20 ORG and 1 artillery with 10 ORG your division will have a total of 15 ORG. HP, Soft attack, Hard attack, defense and, breakthrough, armor, and piercing is a sum of all the divisions battalions (and support) stats.
@podcat has said that the combat mechanic is pretty much the same as in HOI3, just with a more informative screen.

So form my understandig on the HO3 combat mechanic it is as follows.

Division A attacks Division B. Both divisions shoots at eachother
  1. Each side of the battle randomly targets an enemy division, and will keep that target for the entire round.
  2. Each side of the battle will choose to attack the "soft" or "hard" aspect of its target based on its softness: a target with 70% softness has a 70% chance of receiving a soft attack.
  3. Both sides of the battle will fire at each other in sequence. The number of shots fired is based on the attack values, modified by attack effectiveness.
  4. The target then defends against the shots fired:
    1. Each division has defense points for the round, which are used to determined it the shot is a hit or a miss. The defender's "defense points", are its defense value multiplied by the defensive effectiveness. When defending units fire shots back at the attacking unit, the attacker uses "defense points" from its breakthrough value multiplied by defensive effectiveness.
    2. Each division will use one defense point for every shot fired at it. A defense point used creates an X (high) % chance the shot will miss.
    3. If a division has used all defense points in the round, then every shot fired has a X (low) % chance of missing.
Damage
  1. When a shot hits it will take a chunk of the enemy division HP (Hit Points). This will reflect in manpower and equipment loss. If one division looses 5% of its HP in the 1st fire phase it will only have 95% of it stats left for the 2nd fire phase
  2. When a shot hits it will also damage organisation. In Hoi3 the odds were in favor of more organisation damage than HP (in HOI3 manpower).

This means that if you add an artillery battalion to a German infantry division with 80 in ORG - the ORG will actually decrease because an artilllery battalion has lower ORG - but it will increase soft attack more then if you added another infantry battalion.
A divison with low HP's (fx one brigade paratroopers) will more quickly loose HP's than ORG and will perhaps shatter before running out of organisation. Organisation is purely a stat for how long a unit can fight before it has to retreat. Not how effectively it is in dealing damage.
Daniel said in the video that he doesnt like artillery because it decreases organisation and he wants his divisions to be able to fight longer. I disagree. A division with more firepower (soft attack, hard attack) will quicker destroy HP's and ORG on the russian divisions and get him quicker to victory.
Organisation is basically a defense stat. When you are out of ORG the division retreats and cannot reinforce it self into combat again (gets a penalty to reinforcement chance).
 
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Vidkjaer

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In WWW6 the Signal Company actually reduced the Org. Now I am a bit confused. :confused:
View attachment 157212

A signal company increases the reinforcement chance and not organisation. A signal company is not a combat unit. It does not have a high organisation stat and is therefore diluting the divisions organisation stat because the organisation stat is an average and not a sum.
 
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bkuepers

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Organisation is not a sum. It is an average. So if you have 1 infantry with 20 ORG and 1 artillery with 10 ORG your division will have a total of 15 ORG. HP, Soft attack, Hard attack, defense and, breakthrough, armor, and piercing is a sum of all the divisions battalions (and support) stats.
@podcat has said that the combat mechanic is pretty much the same as in HOI3, just with a more informative screen.

Amazing revelation I must have missed. Thank you for that!
 

Vidkjaer

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Me too. I feel the devs need to slow down and take time to build a proper division with all it's support companies, combat artillery and antitank etc...so we can see how the planner really works.
Signal companies should increase Org. Field hospitals should have a neutral/ slight effect on Org but increase morale. The rest as is.
Signal companies increases reinforcement chance. Organisation is a combat stat. If you add a signal company to an infantry division you are diluting the organisation since it is an average.

I dont think radio guys have better combat training than frontline infantry soldiers.
 

LostinSpice

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Signal companies increases reinforcement chance. Organisation is a combat stat. If you add a signal company to an infantry division you are diluting the organisation since it is an average.

I dont think radio guys have better combat training than frontline infantry soldiers.

Interesting, as I'd say signals do increase Org, they allow leaders to get ammo and rations in a timely fashion, drop artillery where needed etc...thus allowing units to fight longer. I'd say their contribution to Org within a division is a massive force multiplier. Increasing reinforcement chance should be just a part of their bonuses.

Edit: Just read the explanation about combat - thanks!

However, I'm still not happy with the fact adding paras didn't improve the Org, which it should have. I still think this is a glitch.
 
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Vidkjaer

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Interesting, as I'd say signals do increase Org, they allow leaders to get ammo and rations in a timely fashion, drop artillery where needed etc...thus allowing units to fight longer. I'd say their contribution to Org within a division is a massive force multiplier. Increasing reinforcement chance should be just a part of their bonuses.

Edit: Just read the explanation about combat - thanks!

However, I'm still not happy with the fact adding paras didn't improve the Org, which it should have. I still think this is a glitch.
In HOI Organisation is how Well trained a battalion is. Not experience, but in tactics/doctrines. Organisation is increased for units through doctrine research.
In HOI4 a signal company models better communication coordination and this results in a bonus for for reinforcement.
The radio tech increases combat stats.

Regarding the paras. Organisation is an average. Adding one more battalion paras cannot increase org. It has the same organisation stat as the rest of the para battalions.
 

LostinSpice

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In HOI Organisation is how Well trained a battalion is. Not experience, but in tactics/doctrines. Organisation is increased for units through doctrine research.
In HOI4 a signal company models better communication coordination and this results in a bonus for for reinforcement.
The radio tech increases combat stats.

Regarding the paras. Organisation is an average. Adding one more battalion paras cannot increase org. It has the same organisation stat as the rest of the para battalions.

I'm going to go with you on this one. :) But I am concerned as Daniel's units were maxed out on land doctrines so I hope this won't stop me building my divisions the way I'd like (based on historic versions) with support companies and combat regiments of AA, Art and AT.
 

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I'm going to go with you on this one. :) But I am concerned as Daniel's units were maxed out on land doctrines so I hope this won't stop me building my divisions the way I'd like (based on historic versions) with support companies and combat regiments of AA, Art and AT.

Well, it all depends on how you want to play. The perfect division is not all about having max attack stats and max organisation.
What good is your combat stats if the enemy can reinforce divisions better than you can because he has signal company in his divisions? In a very large battle where the front with is filled up and each of you therefore have 10 divisions in reserve each. Each one of you can fill maybe 4 divisions in combat at a time. When one of your divisions run out of organisation and will retreat you will only have 10% chance that one of your reserve divisions will enter combat, while your enemy will have 35% chance. Your enemy will then for a short period of time have 4 divisions in combat while you only have 3 divisions in combat until your 10% chance kicks ind and one of your reserve divisions takes the 4th slot. I think that more than equals up the difference in organisation by adding a signal company if that means you will will have 25% more combat strength than your opponent.

AT support or AT battalion also lowers your organisation but it will add hard attack and piercing to your divisions. If you have more piercing in your division than the enemy has amor then you suffer no penalty. But if your dont the enemy divison only suffers half damage. The other way around if you got more armor than he's got piercing he will suffer more organisation loss (i think a popup showed that in the video).
Hard attack shots at a divisions hard portion. If you only got infantry against an amored division with 20% softness you will only damage him 20% compared to if you had more hard attack in your division.

Engineer support increases your defense, your river offense, your amphious offense, but also lowers organisation.

Recon also lowers organisation, but increases your chance that your general will pick the right kind of tactic in battle. When the battle tactic "Attack" only gives your 5% attack bonus when you could have had 50% bonus and 50% more attack speed from "Masterfull Blitz" tactic, then you would miss having recon in your divisions.

Each company has its advantages. Choosing which ones depends on what style of play you want.
 
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LostinSpice

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Well, it all depends on how you want to play. The perfect division is not all about having max attack stats and max organisation.
What good is your combat stats if the enemy can reinforce divisions better than you can because he has signal company in his divisions? In a very large battle where the front with is filled up and each of you therefore have 10 divisions in reserve each. Each one of you can fill maybe 4 divisions in combat at a time. When one of your divisions run out of organisation and will retreat you will only have 10% chance that one of your reserve divisions will enter combat, while your enemy will have 35% chance. Your enemy will then for a short period of time have 4 divisions in combat while you only have 3 divisions in combat until your 10% chance kicks ind and one of your reserve divisions takes the 4th slot. I think that more than equals up the difference in organisation by adding a signal company if that means you will will have 25% more combat strength than your opponent.

AT support or AT battalion also lowers your organisation but it will add hard attack and piercing to your divisions. If you have more piercing in your division than the enemy has amor then you suffer no penalty. But if your dont the enemy divison only suffers half damage. The other way around if you got more armor than he's got piercing he will suffer more organisation loss (i think a popup showed that in the video).
Hard attack shots at a divisions hard portion. If you only got infantry against an amored division with 20% softness you will only damage him 20% compared to if you had more hard attack in your division.

Engineer support increases your defense, your river offense, your amphious offense, but also lowers organisation.

Recon also lowers organisation, but increases your chance that your general will pick the right kind of tactic in battle. When the battle tactic "Attack" only gives your 5% attack bonus when you could have had 50% bonus and 50% more attack speed from "Masterfull Blitz" tactic, then you would miss having recon in your divisions.

Each company has its advantages. Choosing which ones depends on what style of play you want.

I was hoping to use 5 support companies and combat art/At and AA but I suspect the Org will be quite low, although they will be very useful, if a bit delicate divisions!

By the way your posts are enjoyable to read. ☺
 
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