Organically created "elite" units

[daemonofdecay]

One thing I've seen debated a lot before is the role "elite" units have played in the war - units that were given priority on equipment, replacements, training, and generally seen as "better" than the rest. Germany had some (the Grossdeutschland division, Fallschirmjagers, and SS-panzer divisions), as did the Russians (a number of guards divisions), the Americans (USMC, paratroopers), etc.

Now, some of the previous games and their mods represented this by making the "elite" factor for these units hard-coded into their stats. In other examples, there was literally no difference between two divisions beyond the name acting as a little flavor.

I was wondering if the concept for prioritizing units and the whole "pride of the fleet" mechanic for naval units might be expanded upon to give players the ability to create their own "elite" units, without having to either rely upon either having separate unit types or not having the option at all.

When you have a division you want to make into an "elite" unit, you could click a button for the unit similar to making a ship "pride of the fleet", which would give the unit some benefits. I can picture it happening in multiple ways, from boosts to base stats (greater elan and zeal) to allowing the division in question to have greater levels of equipment (the Grossdeutschland super-panzer division model), or some mix of the above. It should not be an instant boost either - having it take time to come into full effect and making it a permanent choice for that unit mean its not some kind of temporary boost.

The cost to making this choice would be increased supply demand, a higher drain on manpower/officers (if those are used), and a Dissent hit if said units were destroyed or disbanded. There should be a limit to the number of "elite" divisions any nation can wield depending on size and power to prevent someone from making all their units elite.

The reason I think this idea would be valuable to the game is that it allows players to have the freedom to express themselves in their units and strategies without having to write in dozens of new unit types to satisfy every nation's different historical take on what was or wasn't an "elite" unit. You don't need to program in separate SS, Guards, etc. divisions for the players - you give them the ability to make their own "special" units that they can either use historically, or can do as they please.

If I'm playing as Germany with a strong air-focus, maybe I want my Fallschirmjaeger's to be the "elite" of the army and not the panzers. But if I want to play more historically, I could reserve those unique unit slots for their historic counterparts. If I'm playing some alternate history America blitzkrieging South America, maybe my "elite" units are my armored divisions. And if I'm doing some crazy all cavalry Soviet game, then I can create my very own Guards Cavalry Divisions.

As long as the boosts are balanced enough that it isn't a no-brainer, I think this would add to the game and both expand player freedom and their ability to reflect history.

What do you guys think?

 

[f1nalstand17]

I think that it's a great idea. But would the same mechanic also apply to aircraft?

 

[Mabzie555]

I think the best thing to do is keep the "elite" brigade (battalion in hoi4).
But instead of being limited to a few countries and being all infantry, allow all countries to make their own elite unit of any land type (basically that type with boosted stats, officer req, etc).

I would really like to make elite units with countries that aren't the US, Germany, France, USSR, Japan, UK or Italy.
I'd also like to make elite units that are not infantry.

 

[safe-keeper]

It technically was always in HOI3: prioritize a division for upgrades and reinforcements, and you have an elite unit. Also, you'll always have units with more experience than the rest. Give them priority for upgrades and reinforcements and you have your elite unit.

Though it would be interesting if you could choose to set training times for individual new divisions. Like, "okay, I want this division to take slightly longer to train than the rest, but deploy with more experience" or something. Not sure if it'd make sense in HOI3 where I think most people play with Specialized Training anyhow, but an interesting idea at least.

 

[Opanashc]

One thing I've seen debated a lot before is the role "elite" units have played in the war - units that were given priority on equipment, replacements, training, and generally seen as "better" than the rest.

There was a button, that made a unit prioritized in receiving upgrades and replacements, during times when IC could not cover all of the requirements. It reflects the mentioned idea perfectly.

 

[Aleksi_i]

I think there would be a "easy" chance.
I don't mean overall training policy like in HoI 3, but this would be training policy of a division(s).

When creating a division, you could chooce the time it is trained. Meaning that you could have let's say 4 buttons. "Minimum", "Basic/Default", "Long training" and "Elite".
This is defined in a certant production queue.
And yes 4 is better than 3 to describe unit training. There must be a default and lower that default. Could have only 1 option better than default, but 2 is better to describe it.
As...
I think "16. Infantry-Division (mot.)" could be told as a better than many others, but not as good as the "Leibstantarde (mot.)".


examples.

You have 4 Motorized infantry division being build With default training. Let's say it takes 8 months to build.
you want 5th unit but, you want it to be elite. Then you don't add one more unit to the que, but add a new one.
For this you press the elite unit button. This takes let's say 12 months to build.

This would increase the unit Exp, and maby the unit name is defined by if it is "Min", "Default", "long" or "elite".
That way the Leibstantarde would actually be better unit from the start, but still the same unit like the other Panzer-Divisions.

Some of the list names could be same, as they are in theory the same units. (I ques HoI4 has some kind of unit name list, like in HoI3)
Maby divisions like german 16. PzG.-Division could only be in the "Basic" and "Long" list's.
36. Infantry-Division Could be in the "Min", "Basic" and maby "Long".

At least the first 1-7 SS-Divisions could be only in the "elite" list.
So like in the HoI3 you build Panzer divisions. You would (get in theory) 1st, 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, Das reich etc.

With this system if you would build "default" it would be: 1st, 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th etc.
Wth "Elite": LSSAH, Das reich, Totenkopf, Großdeutschland, Wiking etc. Maby even have 7th (Rommels "Ghost division") if you don't have it allready as build as "Basic" or "Long" settings.

Selections would give imersion. In HoI3 i had to look the name file what is the next unit name i build. This way giving it maby something stronger.



What do you thing of this, or have eny improvements?


Edit:
<safe-keeper> Opp's, Didn't read your post and we have a same idea. You are my soulmate.

This system would actually have to mean something. Elite units are way better than basic, meaning their starting Exp.
And people that want to build only elite units would have to pay for it. Meaning they would have very small but elite army. For example Germany could have an army sized for example 1/10 if all is builded as an elite.
Or maby a limited to 20 for Germany 20 for USSR and 3 for small country like Finland. Or what ever is the number of units that could be seen as a elite unit historically.
This Exp. based system would also mean that battle hardened veterans could match the just created elite unit.

 

[Chromos]

I think we have these differences:
1. Draft only the fittest. This alone will result in higher combat stats over the "average Joe".
2. Combat experience, so unit is getting overall better in the combat they expereinced so far.
3. Unit training. So some units are having better chances to get along with battlefield situations because of that training.
That can be also achieved by battelfied experience but overall they're trained before to quite some possible sitautions while if you need to learn by doing in combat, it often cost some mans life before you learned your lesson.
So still an advantage imo. Higher starting experience, and maybe gets combat experience faster then lower trained units up to a point.
4. "Indoctrination", be it fighting because "you have nothing more to loose", "you fight the demon on earth", bring gods empire to all humans or whatever makes your units fight different as "normal" ones.
Typical result would be the ingnorance of losses until a task is fulffilled. Think abou the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". So ingame high org and morale to stay and fight until unit is bleed out.
5. Better/more equipment. So the unit has more firepower to inflict casualities on their enemy or has an easier life in harsh environments and so on leading to combat advantages.

So with this 5 modules, you can simulate nearly all different elite formations.
Be it the SS-Militia/Camicie Nere etc. wich would have been indoctrinated but wont get that much/different equipment then regular units, or overstrenght units like GER Grossdeutschland wich would have extra training and equipment as also of course point #1.
For Marine and Bergs we would have #1/#3 and the equipment would be special for their special area of combat.

And so on..

Basing on the ideas from others above it would be nice to be able to build your DIV and just click a checkbox or having a slider for training time lvl of indoctrination.
Equipment would come via the one we choose in the designer. It would be cool to have different class of MP so we could choose here too wich one should be used for our unit.

 

[daemonofdecay]

There was a button, that made a unit prioritized in receiving upgrades and replacements, during times when IC could not cover all of the requirements. It reflects the mentioned idea perfectly.

I mention the prioritize button myself, and the idea was one of my inspirations. However, it was not something that made units unique or special - as a German player I just prioritized all my panzer divisions and those that were going into combat because they were more important than my infantry divisions. I generally had a large swath of my army prioritized because new technology for tanks was more important to me than infantry guns.

I'm thinking of a mechanic that actually affects the unit - a full strength and upgraded prioritized unit is no different than a full strength and upgraded non-priority unit. Something simple and universal that any nation can use to make some of their units special and stand out, but according to the players' wishes, and with a noticeable in game effect - better combat ability, greater size, etc. Something that makes them unique.

 

[Stenner]

I'm thinking of a mechanic that actually affects the unit - a full strength and upgraded prioritized unit is no different than a full strength and upgraded non-priority unit.

This takes into assumption that you already have enough equipment of the "best/latest" type for all your units


The idea that an elite unit just has better equipment or more of it than normal is actually quite fair toward what we want in an "elite unit" from what we've seen of HOI 4.

As an example, think of Japan in HOI 3. I loved playing Japan, I would have my "elite infantry" be ALL my infantry, and it was great, then I would have to struggle with airplanes and ships.

One of the core decisions that we'll have to make as players is deciding how much of what equipment to make, and this makes Japan to me seem all the more desperate as I'll have to produce ships, planes AND weapons. (In one of the DD's they say that there are 3 factory types, Civilian, Naval, and Military, this makes me think I'll have to balance making planes and infantry guns which are made by the same factories, that is going to be tough).

I think we'd do well to acknowledge the features already mentioned in the DD's and videos. The idea that you can't give the "best/latest" equipment to all your troops all the time is strong evidence that being elite simply means you have the best stuff.

It's mentioned somewhere that you also have to train and equip your units, meaning you don't just have to make only the stuff they need, but that there's a process to giving it to them or making the units (this may pertain to training levels but we don't know yet).

Certainly if I have all the best stuff in '36, and want to make an army to prepare for war, then I'll have to retool my factories for the new tech before war breaks out, and my units who required the equipment to be built in the first place now need much better equipment, but I can't just cut off my production completely because then I'll have no equipment in reserve and nothing to resupply with, because theoretically if I retool all my weapons factories for the higher tech level stuff I'll be making less than I was because of efficiency bonuses.

Also, in relation to Russia's Guard's units, the guards units I've been hearing about from documentaries were only made guards units because they held the line when the Germans advanced, the promotion to "Guards" was supposed to give them a morale boost and I'm not sure yet whether or not they actually got better equipment or more reinforcements because of it.

Anyway.. Yea, I think there's a lot to Elite units just being the most well reinforced / highest priority. Meaning You're more often at full strength and you have the best equipment (which actually is a thing now, unlike HOI 3)

 

[Stenner]

Something simple and universal that any nation can use to make some of their units special and stand out, but according to the players' wishes, and with a noticeable in game effect - better combat ability, greater size, etc. Something that makes them unique.

Sorry to not make this all one post, But I forgot to mention how with there now being equipment, the new division builder actually does this pretty well..

Every nation can build their elite unit how they like, there are a ton of division slots now to tweak and play with. And you actually have to earn it with XP, you can't just start the game and say "WELP, ALL MY GUYS ARE ELITES NOW ".

Also there was mention (I'm very tired, sorry for no links but this is in either the DD or their youtube vids) that your units would branch and you could make them do whatever you wanted later with doctrines.

 

[208]

I'm thinking of a mechanic that actually affects the unit - a full strength and upgraded prioritized unit is no different than a full strength and upgraded non-priority unit. Something simple and universal that any nation can use to make some of their units special and stand out, but according to the players' wishes, and with a noticeable in game effect - better combat ability, greater size, etc. Something that makes them unique.

You can make a division template with more battalions than your "regular" divisions. The rest is as already pointed out - if a unit gets a lot of experience and is prioritized for equipment/supplies, that is de facto an "elite" unit - then you can swap its template and give it extra battalions. With these mechanics already presented, I really don't think there's a need for a formal "elite unit" system in HoI4.

 

[Stenner]

http://youtu.be/15Fxaax41t4?t=15m17s

Found it.

this is the thing I was mentioning, although he could just be alluding to the doctrine tree that we've already seen to give bonuses to certain units.

 

[Opanashc]

Also, in relation to Russia's Guard's units, the guards units I've been hearing about from documentaries were only made guards units because they held the line when the Germans advanced, the promotion to "Guards" was supposed to give them a morale boost and I'm not sure yet whether or not they actually got better equipment or more reinforcements because of it.

Think of the title "Guards" as a unit citation.

 

[No idea]

In hoi the elite units were there for flavour, and they got some special abilities and slightly better stats. They were based on historical "elite" units like us rangers, brithish gurkas, italian bersaglieri and so on. On any case what irl made these units "elite" was the fact that they were formed up by volunteers or soldiers with a lot of fighting in them (and fitter than the average soldier) and that they usually had a special training (harder than the average one). Of course, in hoi 3 you could always build "elite" units using the latest equipment, best training and best generals.

I guess with the hoi iv unit generator we will be able to make very different units and some of them night be considered "elite". But elite units should be something restricted to a few divisions or we risk making the elite concept pointless. Too widespread. After all, if half your army is elite, the term losses its meaning.

 

[Zinegata]

Pretty much all of the so-called "elite" units in WW2 are only such because of propaganda and not necessarily because of their effectiveness in the first place.

The prime determinant of a Division's fighting capability is the training time and soundness of the organization; followed by combat experience resulting in modifications of the training practices and organization. The next determinant is access to rest and resupply. Most can simply be simulated in HOI by the experience modifiers.

 

[AmpsterMan]

So not to rain on the parade, but this is kinda possible already; in my current Japan game, I attacked China with three armies, but one of them saw more combat than the other two. Consequently, I have assigned a Mechanized Corps to 1st Army, prioritized reinforcements and upgrades, and they lead my charges against the enemy. I think the issue currently is a presentation one. The only reason I know 1st Army is more experienced is because I followed each division closely (12 or so). I would think what we need is an easy to see list of experienced units, battles, casualties inflicted, recieved, equipment destroyed, etc.

 

[D Inqu]

Pretty much all of the so-called "elite" units in WW2 are only such because of propaganda and not necessarily because of their effectiveness in the first place.

The prime determinant of a Division's fighting capability is the training time and soundness of the organization; followed by combat experience resulting in modifications of the training practices and organization. The next determinant is access to rest and resupply. Most can simply be simulated in HOI by the experience modifiers.

True. Most units were not selective (or at most with very broad selection criteria). The few units which were selective were not substantially different in their combat efficiency from "non-elite" units of the same strength.

Specialist units had extra training, but it was for their specific task, which reflects in their attack, def bonuses already i.e. mountain troops get bonuses in mountains, but aren't any tougher in the field that regular inf (in fact are weaker due to lack of heavy equipment).