Org regain

[pcoud]

I must be missing something, can't understand org regain of my units.

For example: I have different armys/units in the very same province (same terrain, same weather, and, apart from some leaders bonuses, same ESE). My marines in this province are at almost full org (they are at 68/70), yet have a daily regain of 1,5. While my infantry is at org 29/67, but only have 0,87 daily org regain?

I don't know the formula behind org regain (if anyone knows, I'd be glad to know), but I know it depends on morale, friendly soil or not, weather, ratio current org/max org, yet I cannot understand some (big) differences I'm seeing among my units?

I'm sure I must be missing one (or more) important parameter / modifier, but which one(s)?

Any help appreciated, thx!

 

[Rangergxi]

Time, supplies and not being encircled.

Different units and doctrines also affect org gain.

 

[pcoud]

@ranger: thx, but it does not explain what I am describing (different units in the same province having very different org regain), except if different units have different org regain rates, which I never ever was aware of, and can't find any evidence of.
Actually, as per patch 1.04 notes, 1.04 introduced a "new org regain logic". You can find all modifiers in the misc.txt, but what I am missing is how is calculated the base org regain (before you apply any modifier).
I am asking, because in my war against Japan on Nat China soil, some of my armys recover org much quicker than others. I initially thought it was because of infra or weather or something, until I noticed these unexplained differences for armys in the same province (same infra, same ESE, same weather, same morale, same everything I can think of). The only thing that is different is the ratio current org / max org. In the misc.txt file you can find the formula for the modifier related to this ratio. Basically, the closer you are from max org, the lower your regain org. So, my marines at 68/70 should have a much lower regain than my infantry at 29/67, ... and they have almost double...

 

[Eugenioso]

@ranger: thx, but it does not explain what I am describing (different units in the same province having very different org regain), except if different units have different org regain rates, which I never ever was aware of, and can't find any evidence of.
Actually, as per patch 1.04 notes, 1.04 introduced a "new org regain logic". You can find all modifiers in the misc.txt, but what I am missing is how is calculated the base org regain (before you apply any modifier).
I am asking, because in my war against Japan on Nat China soil, some of my armys recover org much quicker than others. I initially thought it was because of infra or weather or something, until I noticed these unexplained differences for armys in the same province (same infra, same ESE, same weather, same morale, same everything I can think of). The only thing that is different is the ratio current org / max org. In the misc.txt file you can find the formula for the modifier related to this ratio. Basically, the closer you are from max org, the lower your regain org. So, my marines at 68/70 should have a much lower regain than my infantry at 29/67, ... and they have almost double...

Units themselves do have different morale attributes, which defines the speed at which they regain their organization, regardless of doctrine. Specialist units like marines or mountaineers have not only a higher org value, they also have a hidden value called MORALE somewhere hidden in the unit stats. This stat defines the unit´s natural ability to regain org. All units have morale, but different values for them. That explains why some units with the current org/max org can regain their org faster, since, according to what you said, the morale bonus is applied AFTER the org ratio recovery. That would explain why the units regain org at different speed regardless of the org ratio conundrum.

 

[pcoud]

Thanks for your reply and help Eugenioso. IF units had some hidden morale value, that would definitely explain things, but why do you say this morale value is hidden? You can check the individual morale value of each unit by clicking on it in the left panel. The two armies I was comparing in my initial post are both at 40% morale, and that's why I keep on thinking they should recover at the same pace since they have the exact same modifiers (except the current/max org ratio modifier, but I have taken it into account). I started investigating this issue because I brought a lot of moutaineers to fight in the mountains west of Nat China and they take quite a long time to recover org after a battle, so I am not sure at all if being a "specialist" really matters on this subject.

EDIT: some pictures (it's not the exact same case as in my original post)



As you can see, 2 armys in the same province, same ESE, all units having the same 50% morale, and yet marines are regaining org much, much faster than mountaineers (I have actually checked a lot of other divisions in the same area and the values of org regain I can see seem rather consistent EXCEPT for these marines who seem to be recovering much faster)

 

[Eugenioso]

You are playing as the US, whose land doctrine gives different bonuses to different units. Not knowing the US doctrine by heart, you could check the individual bonuses it gives.

 

[Epaminondas]

I think there might be a slippage in reasoning here, coud. The fact that both armies display a 40% morale indicates that each is at 40% of it's particular morale, not that they have the same morale. Additionally, if the units have different org regain rates that 40% is simply the point from which their individual recovery starts and doesn't necessarily indicate anything about how quickly each will recover to full morale.

 

[pcoud]

@Eugenioso: doctrines give bonuses to morale, and morale influences the org regain rate. But this bonuses apply equally to all units. What I'm trying to understand here is why I am seeing a difference between two units that apparently have the same modidiers.

@Epaminondas:

The fact that both armies display a 40% morale indicates that each is at 40% of it's particular morale, not that they have the same morale

Hmm, good point, although I must say I'm very doubtful. It is actually true that each unit has an individual morale value. You can find it in the units.txt files. In my example I am comparing marines 43 and mountaineers 42. The unit "marines 43" has a base morale of 40 (found in units.txt), and "mountaineers 42" has the same base value of 40. The doctrine path I have followed give a +10 bonus to this morale, so both units currently have a morale of 50 ( I made a mistake in my other post, it's 50, not 40), displayed as 50% when you look at the unit stats:



Then I believe this morale is used as a modifier to org regain as per this line of misc.txt:
# ORG regain [all] - Morale effect. [1.0 + Morale * THIS]. Multiplier
0.01 #0.01
(in my example the morale effect on org regain should then be a multiplier of 1.5 for both units)

Additionally, if the units have different org regain rates that 40% is simply the point from which their individual recovery starts

I don't understand? Recovery starts as soon as the unit does not have its max org, doesn't it? At which speed, that is the question.

how quickly each will recover to full morale.

My understanding is that you don't recover morale, you recover org. Morale influences the speed at which you recover org.

Well anyway, thanks a lot, it's not a big deal, I can play without understanding this I was just wondering if there was a way to have my mountaineers recover their full org quicker, and I think the answer is to try to put them in a province with good infra, that's all

 

[Epaminondas]

To the "recovery starts" point I can only say "Yep", that wasn't sufficiently precise. What I should have said was, "that 40% is simply the point from which each is presently recovering."
To the point on morale v. org I plead guilty also. Just plain careless of me.

 

[MartinBG]

What game version are you using?
Minister personalities could have effect on ORG regain too. This could be set for all units, specific unit type or even for specific brigades when attached to units.
Another hidden* setting that could affect ORG regain is distance to last "home" province (owned by own or allied country) where this unit was.

*This can be checked in the save file only.

 

[pcoud]

Thank you for your reply Martin. I am using DH full 1.04, no mods.

The main question in this thread is how can 2 different units in the very same province have (very) different org regain rates. Your note about this hidden setting is interesting to know, but cannot explain a difference since the units I compared earlier in his thread are in the same province (ie both at the same distance to last home province). Same for minister modifiers, they should apply equally to both units and can't explain a difference.
In my humble opinion the only thing that could explain a difference would be a unit specific modifier, but I couldn't find any evidence of such a modifier. Is that what you mean by "this could be set for specific unit type"? If yes, any example of an org regain modifier that would impact differently marines vs mountaineers for example?

This is of course quite a minor issue although from what I've seen I was wondering whether I should only build marines, even for mountaineous terrain, and just forget about mountaineers. By the way, I'm under the impression that it is marines that have quite high org regain rates. All other units, motorized, regular infantry, mountaineers seem quite lower but consistent among themselves. But that last point is just an impression, nothing factual.

 

[MartinBG]

Home province is set individually for every unit when it enters a friendly owned province and remains set to that province until the unit enters another owned by a friendly nation province. In your example the two units could have different home provinces (thousand miles away from each other) which can be checked only in the save game file.

 

[pcoud]

AAAAAAAAAAAhhhhh !!!!!!!!! Maybe THE explanation! Tell me if I got it right: maybe my marines were coming from the Philippines (a friendly territory) when they disembarked in mainland China (or at least the Philippines were the last friendly territory the stayed in), which was by the way probably the case since these marines were the ones who did the first amphibious assault in China, while my moutaineers maybe came straight from San Francisco or Pearl Harbour or whatever far away base?
In which case that would mean that you always should get your units in a friendy territory as close as possible to the next hostile territory you plan to send them in, the difference in org regain is huge, like x3 in my example!
I'd be at this point very satisfied with your explanation and I have really learned something, but would YOU be interested in checking the save? I might still have it (not 100% sure though, have to check).
Many thx.

 

[MartinBG]

Yes, you've got it right.

I can check the save game, but you can do that too if you want:

1. search the save (I'd recommend to open it in a powerful text editor like Notepad++) for the unit name (ex. US XI Corps)
2. look for "home =" setting in that unit's section. The number is the home province ID

 

[pcoud]

OK great, many thx!